Re: steel was Re: [tied] First iron swords on mass scale

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hall" <markhall@...>
To: <cybalist@egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 6:48 AM
Subject: steel was Re: [tied] First iron swords on mass
scale

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. This means that steel was
produced on a considerable scale in early Mediaeval Europe.
I stand corrected. The article I quote doesn't deny the
possibility that steel could be consistently used even if
the manufacturing process was poorly understood and far from
reliable. The blacksmiths certainly knew good steel if they
saw it -- they just had to rely on a little bit of luck to
get it, unlike their more expert Damascene colleagues.

Even the Greeks in Homer's times understood the hardening
process; the problem was how to make a metal that could be
hardened -- and heat treatment didn't work with the
low-carbon alloys they obtained most of the time.

Piotr

> The Scandinavians (ie Vikings) knew quite well how to make
and CONSISTENTLY
> use steel before the 14th century AD. I would strongly
suggest you take a
> look the metallurgical reports scattered throughout the
Helgo and Birka site
> reports, the work of Gerry MacDonald and Patrick Ottaway
for the ironwork
> from Anglo-Scandinavian levels at York, R. F. Tylecote's
METALLOGRAPHY OF
> FERROUS TOOLS AND WEAPONS, Berg's work on the ironwork
from the Viking
> settlements in the Orkneys. The metallography from these
sites shows that
> they could consistently produce medium carbon steel and
understood quenching
> and heat treating---maybe not like we understand it
today---but they were
> capable of turning out consistent products such as knives
and swords that
> were consistent. The metallography of the knives from
Medieval London
> (post-Viking) also show they knew how to consistently make
steel.
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Michal Milewski" <milewski@...>
> > To: <cybalist@egroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 10:22 PM
> > Subject: Re: [tied] First iron swords on mass scale
> >
> >
> > >From what I've read, if real steel was ever obtained in
> > ancient Europe, it was a serendipitous by-product of
wrought
> > iron manufacture, of inconsistent and uncontrollable
> > quality. The Greeks and the Romans knew that the process
was
> > possible, and that the presence of charcoal had
something to
> > do with it, but never managed to understand the details
and
> > so experimented at random, without much success.
Europeans
> > did not learn much more about steel-making until about
the
> > 14th century.
> >
> > The first controllable steel-making technique was
developed
> > rather early (possibly by 500 BC) in ancient India
(wootz
> > steel), and somewhat later in the Middle East (Damascus
> > steel).
> >
> > I've just found another excellent article about the
history
> > of iron and steel manufacture, very competently
discussed,
> > with source references.
> >
> > http://www.mri.on.ca/steel.html
> >
> > Piotr
> >
>
>
>
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