Re: [tied] AMAZONS: legend or history?

Herodotus speaks of warrior-women of the steppe, living in equality with their men. My edition is that of Robin Wakefield. In the note to 4.110-17, I read

"According to Rolle (p. 88), graves of women warriors are found throughout the steppe region. They are buried with armour and weapons, and the skeletons bear evidence of wounds taken in battle. In Sauromatia, the region of the lower Volga, 20 per cent of graves containing weapons and harness are those of women, but sizeable numbers have been found in western Scythia as well."

Rolle is R. Rolle, The World of the Scythians, 1989.

Martin Huld, in EIEC, in the article 'Man', gives the likely etymology of 'Amazon': "it is more probably from PIE n-mngw-ion-es 'man-less, without husbands'.

There really were amazons. This does strike at the heart of the usual views of IE patriarialism, and particularly, that of the Iranians.

Mark.

----- Original Message -----

From: João Simões Lopes Filho

What would be the origin of the Amazons, the warrior women of Greek legends? Were they some historical people? Or just a myth?

I don't deny the opinion that Sarmatian women were very active as warriors, but I think the Amazo:nes had some mythic substratum: a host of fierce marine women.

1) AMAZO:NES (akin to Armenian Amis-Zon "Moon Woman" ?)

They've ever apperead in Greek myths as adversaries of heroes, Theseus, Herakles and Bellerophontes. Myrina (Bathyaia)'s tomb is cited at Iliad. Diodorus Siculus mentioned euhemerist tales envolving Lybian Amazons, Atlants and Gorgons.

2) GEOGRAPHICAL REFERENCES

There were two different areas, perhaps reflecting two distinct traditions. The "Southern Tradition", with Amazons coming from Egypt, Libya, or even Hesperides. The "Northern Tradition", with Amazons coming from Asia, Thracia or Scythia. The S-Tradition may have connections with female priests of Neith, that were depicted as warriors. The N-Tradition may have influences from Sarmatian warrior women. Maybe these traditions could have influenced the Amazon legends.

I gathered other legends that can have links to the Amazons:

- HALIAI

Warrior women came from sea following Dionysus. They're killed by Perseus. Sometimes depicted as Sirens.

- DANAIDES

50 women coming from Egypt (beyond Sea), husband-killers, killed by Lygkeus and punished in Tartarus.

- MAINADES

The wild furious women that followed Dionysus, sometimes explained as the nymphs that raised Dionysus. Dionysus sometimes ran after his foes hiding under sea, among the Nereides Sometimes the Mainades were described as the Kadmos's daughters, driven crazy by Dionysus.

- NEREIDES

50 sea-nymphs. The Orphism put them as nurses of little Dionysus. Two of the Nereides, Autonoe & Agaue, had the same names as two Kadmos's daughters. According to Nereus was the same character as Proteus "First One"; Kadmos can came from Semitic Qadm "First". Proteus and Kadmos were associated to Phoenicia. Kadmos may have absorbed elements of Semitic Ba'al, as a dragon-killer.

- NYSAI

Other names of the nurses of Dionysus. Sometimes they were the Hyades. Connection with Heimdall, raised by sea-giantesses?

- LEMNIADES

Other group of women that kill men. They were islanders, then, "women from sea".

- THESPIADAI

50 maidens that gave to Herakles his sons

- ENDYMIONIDES

50 daughters of Endymion and Selene, the Moon. Sometimes from Caria, sometimes from Elis.

Concluding:

Fifty wild and ferocious sea-nymphs, maybe connected to Moon, invading Greece and defeated by a Greek hero.

Joao SL

Rio