Re: [tied] Re: Religion

I think in one point Glen is right: Ba'al had some Underworld aspect,
because died and was reborn by Anat, unless it was Egyptian influence of
Osiris/Isis legend or the usual Adonis-Astart / Dumuzi-Inana stories.
If you like to link fire with Underworld the best choice is Nergal, but I
find no other deity similar.

Joao SL
Rio

----- Original Message -----
From: Glen Gordon <glengordon01@...>
To: <cybalist@egroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Religion


>
>
> Here are some fallacies that I would like to nip in the bud...
>
> 1. John: "Baal was never a 'God of the Underworld'"
>
> Wrong. According to Ugaritic mythology, there are the two stories dating
to
> at least 1400 BCE linking Baal firmly to the Underworld - The Battle of
Yam
> "The Sea" and The Battle of Mot. Yam is associated with Leviathan, a
> serpent, and lives in a palace UNDER THE SEA (!!). Mot is inarguably an
> UNDERWORLD (!!) god of the dead.
>
> The battle of Baal versus Yam is parallel to the story of Marduk and
Tiamat
> as well as the IE story of Above-Man (supposedly *Tritos) slaying the
> Three-Headed Serpent with the help of the magic of the war god
*PexwrGnnos.
> Although Baal's palace was on Mount Zephon (and therefore in the sky)
> according to Canaanites, the two stories serve to show that he is the
MASTER
> OF THE UNDERWORLD and is therefore surely without question an underworld
god
> in act, from most ancient times.
>
> Since you clearly state, John, that the story of a battle between Yam &
Baal
> "came originally from Sumeria during the Ubaid and later
> spread of Sumerian myths northwards into Syria", you are supporting the
> ancient prehistoric connection that Baal had with the Underworld. Thank
you
> for agreeing with me :)
>
> The following article may be of interest. It links Mars with destructive
> forces and attempts, as I do, to put forth the likelihood that the deities
> we are talking about on this list have been founded on cosmology at an
early
> date.
>
> http://netropic.speakeasy.org/strand/3/apollo.html
>
> 2. Arkugal's claim that Venus-Mars links only go back to the "Hellenic
> Period"...
>
> Sorry Arkey dude, the Ugaritic myths go back to at least 1400 BCE. The
myths
> include Athtar, Venus, son of Ashera (aka Astarte). The Battle of Mot
> provides a link between Athtar and Baal. This is already at the very start
> of any Hellenic period.
>
> In Canaanite tradition, Athirat is generally married to El except in Qatra
> where she is married to Baal-Hadad (!). She frequents the ocean shores
> (WATER and UNDERWORLD!). Again, Athirat sends her son Athtar (associated
> with the planet VENUS again!) to be ruler of the UNDERWORLD when she
> discovers that Baal has supposedly died IN THE UNDERWORLD. On a side note,
> the battle of Mot is related to the stories of a dying son, Tammuzi,
"child
> of the Abyss", raccounting the origin of the seasons. There appears to
also
> be Athtart, a consort of Baal(!!!), a goddess of FERTILITY as well as WAR
> and chase. Aka: Inanna's Descent. Question: Why does Inanna (Venus) set
her
> heart on ruling the underworld? The dying god story and thus the
connection
> between Venus and Mars goes back as far as the 4th millenium in
Mesopotamia.
>
> Plus, since John has already stated that these myths are based on even
> earlier Sumerian ones whose tradition had only been taken over by
Akkadians
> from as early as 2000 BCE, all I can do is just sit back on this one and
> gloat knowing that Arkugal is wrong, wrong, wrong. :)
>
> 3. Cosmology originates with the Sumerians.
>
> What a load of BS! How can we possibly assert this claim with proof or
> logic? Is there a specific historical date at which the Sumerians
discovered
> the planets? If not, we can't be so bold to presume that the Sumerians
> invented everything, especially when they have been prehistorically
> influenced by the Ubaid culture from the north, derived from the Halaf
> culture which John associates with the spread of agriculture in the
> MiddleEast. If agriculture truely did originate in Eastern Anatolia
starting
> at around 9000 BCE, then we should expect that the real and mythological
> importance placed on the sky and its objects is also from this date and
> location.
>
> 4. John: "Glen, see my point about the late insertion of Nergal as
divinity
> of the underworld in post Sumerian times"
>
> And so what was he in Sumerian times then? A god of hot air? :P
>
> 5. Nergal was never a fire god.
>
> Why does this site disagree with you?
>
> http://sunsite.org.uk/packages/Project-Gutenberg/etext00/7rbaa10.txt
>
> It states: "It is in consequence of this side of [Nergal's] character that
> he appears also as god of fire, the destroying element,[...]"
>
> John:
> >Interesting Glen, Baal was a storm god, not a mountain or underword
> >god as you assert.
>
> Oh John, get real. The very fact that Baal is a storm god means that he is
> linked with Chaos, the Chaos of the Underworld as shown by his association
> with Mot and Yam. These are stories to demonstrate that Baal in the end is
> the ruler of his underworld domain.
>
> >Mot was god of the underword, a dark and gloomy place, not a place of
> >fire and red. Nergal's colour was black (read the site you
> >quoted again Glen) not red.
>
> Right, black like in Steppe mythology in connection with the earth because
> they both share a bipartitive worldview where the sky is bright and the
> EARTH is dark without a concept of Underworld like in SemitoEuropoid
belief.
> Nergal would partly have been confused with the local tradition of this
more
> ancient colour symbolism. A quote from
> (http://sunsite.org.uk/packages/Project-Gutenberg/etext00/7rbaa10.txt)
> yields:
>
> "The identity [of Nergal] with the Greek Aries and the
> Roman Mars is proved by the fact that his planet was
> /Mustabarru-mutanu/, 'the death spreader,' which is
> probably the name of Mars in Semitic Babylonian."
>
> Again, Mars is a red planet and can be seen as such by the naked eye.
>
> John goes on a rant:
> >Old Europe monotheistic! Surely you jest. Even Gambutas makes no
> >such claim. There is a huge gap between henotheism and monotheism.
> >There is no examples of monotheism anywhere in the world until the
> >closure of the Oecumene in the Axial Age of Karl Jaspers (post 700
> >BCE).
>
> What should we be looking for as a characteristic of "monotheism" then?
>
> >As Zaehner shows, it was Zarathushtra who developed the first
> >monotheism, [...]
>
> An emotional plea and an unverifiable assumption, typical of your input
thus
> far.
>
> - gLeN
>
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