Re: [tied] Re: Color and Caste.

From: Rex H. McTyeire
Message: 3692
Date: 2000-09-14

This discussion reminds me of exchanges on evolution between a molecular biologist and a paleoanthropologist: one can only see simple cellular change, and the other only sees complex change in a specific species :-).
 
Glen:
As I've elaborated, the colour signifance would be primarily associated with the realms and the colours found within them: Overworld (yellow, bright blue), Middleworld (green) and Underworld (red). These also happened to be the colours of the three seasons: winter, spring/summer, fall. Since the priests were associated with the Overworld, the herder-cultivators with the Middleworld and the warriors with the Underworld, the colour symbolism was then transferred to these three social functions as well.  
 
Modern language has a large group of color words used descriptively, the subject languages used a much smaller group of words non-descriptively.  They were subgroups. Perhaps we have one group, the spectrum, and other subgroups..but nobody uses "spectrum" as a descriptive adjective to better express the color of a dress.  As the groups were associated to seasons and mythological realms analogously..color was (in my view, better) expressed analogously.  Greek priestesses of Artemis did not wear yellow robes, they wore saffron robes.  And the description loses something in translation to yellow. 
 
Mark Odegard:
PIE is imputed at best to have four color-terms, and these need to be understood in terms different from ours.
 
Precisely.
 
Mark again:
>With garments, unless you have dyes, you have a very limited choice of
> colors. The priest likely wore white wool or
white linen -- 'white' >here
>probably being on the dingy side.
Natural dyes tend to give you >browns and
>blacks. One ancient recipe
for red dye is to boil >European ivy sap in
>urine.
 
The urine did not have a color function, but was used as a "mordant":  its application was worked out to the degree that the difference in result between male and female human urine and various animal urines was known.  It functioned to open the natural fiber (or leather) and seal the color, and prevent "washing out" or fading.  Urine was also used late in the hand made Irish/Scots tartan industry, and continued until late in the 19th century when replaced by aniline dyes. Other natural mordents used by the Scots included alum, iron, copper, fir-club moss and oak-galls. 

Mark again:
> Undoubtedly, of course, they could say something like 'light like new
> grass', 'dark like pine needles' or 'light like a
clear cloudless sky
> after a rainstorm'. But these are not real
color-words.
 
But neither were the small group of terms we identify "real color words" in the sense that we currently use "real color words".  By deliberate selection of analogous color terms, and modifying with other adjectives (as in your examples above) ..the color could be more precisely and descriptively pinned, and other communication could also be expressed in the choice of analogy.  "Mordant" has another meaning as an adjective: harshly ironic or sinister. In describing the embarkation of victorious heroes after ten years of absence, to return home to lost kingdoms and strangers, unfaithful wives, unknown children and a changed world..in which their own value would be questioned.....Homer said much more than color by the very meaningful use of:    "a wine dark sea" .
 
La Revedere;
Rex H. McTyeire
Bucharest, Romania
<rexbo@...>