Re: [tied] Religion

Joao:

>*Worsanos < *worsa- "rain". You can translate *Worsanos as you prefer: >He
>of the Rain, The Rainy, Master of the Rain, etc. It's just a >hypothesis,
>and it's not mine. But surely we still talking IE.

I still don't understand. What's the reflex of *worsa-? And why is
*-nos (passive?) attached to it? How does this make grammatical sense in IE?

Joao:

>1) Dumezil considered Varuna from *WER- "to bind". Indeed Varuna was a
> >Binder". Indeed, Ouranos "bind" his children, the Titans.

Joao later:

>If *WER- was *WERHw-, this can explain the -u

...But wouldn't this *werxWnos mean "bound" and not "binder"?? We'd expect
*werxWte:r, no?


Joao:

>2) Other authors considered Varuna from *WEL-, like Lithuanian Velnias
>"devil", vele "dead", ON valr "dead", Slavic Volos, Veles . >So, *Welunos
>would be a shapeshifting, terrible god, perhaps >underworld.

Glen (ME):

>As I've said before, I don't think that there was a good/evil >opposition
>between the Overworld and the Underworld originally. This >would come later
>through associations with Christianity.

Joao:

>I agree 100% with you!

Alright, I now know where you're coming from.

Joao:

>I think the only PIE Underworld Ruler was
>the First-Man, judge of dead (Yama, Manu, Mannuz, Yima, Minos).

Glen (ME):

>I'll agree that *Yemos was the protector of the Underworld. I don't >think
>of *Yemos as the "first man" but rather as the earth incarnate. >*Manus,
>his brother, would be the "first man". Afterall, why would a >dead man be
>our ancestor! :)

Joao:

>Well Yama was the Indian king of dead, although he picked the name >YAMA
>what I think was originally of the Hermaphrodit Giant Purusha (cf Ymir and
>Remus <*Iemus ). So the the original Indian First Man was Manu, but the
>name Yama came from "Purusha".

But it seems to make sense to me that Yama (or *Yemos) is the god of the
dead. I don't see why he had to "borrow" this name from some other deity.
Rather, perhaps Purusha is a blend of two or more deities including *Yemos,
or even a new aspect of *Yemos, while Yama himself is on a whole the main
derivative of *Yemos.

Glen:

>Hmm, interesting. However, *wesnos "the dark colour" (green, blue, >black)
>seems associated with spring, the commoner caste and the >earthly realm. By
>thinking of these colour associations, a dark >*Wa:tnos doesn't seem to
>fit, if he is part of the Overworld, whose >colour is "light" (sky blue,
>white, yellow). If this connection only >exists in India, maybe it's not an
>IE tradition afterall.

Joao:

>Your interpretation of colour symbolism is so radical and litteral, >isn't
>it?

I don't think so. It's a natural association. The IE's didn't seem to have
specific colour names like we do (red, fuschia, mauve...). "Light" can refer
to light blue (as in the sky), yellow (as in the sun) or white (as in the
moon), among other light colours. These are elements of the sky. It is also
the colour of winter. Note the "frosty" beginnings of Ymir and creation?
From Creation to Ragnarok, it's all one big seasonal change after another
where Creation is "winter" and Ragnarok is "fall" with "spring/summer" in
between. The Overworld came to be associated with the priest caste and
therefore, white was too.

Green is associated with the earth (Middleworld) because of the obvious
reason that this is the colour of plantlife, especially in the spring. Dark
blue is also mixed in with this because, as I've said, the IE-speakers
didn't have specific colour names, so ALL dark colours were lumped in.
Japanese is an example of a language that has a single word for both green
AND blue (Egyptian too, I think). Because of the later association between
the middleworld and commoners (farmers, pastoralists), green got stuck on
them too.

Red is associated with blood and is the appropriate colour for the warrior
caste as well as the only contrastive colour left to attribute to the
Underworld. It is also the colour prominent in fall as the leaves change
colour.

Marija Gimbutas pays attention to this colour symbolism. I believe Mallory
does too. The colour symbolism, AFAIK, exists in Indic symbolism (what was
it now... "varna"?) as well as in some European myths. I think Mallory
describes it in detail - I have to kuh-nab :) that book again.

>Surely Varuna and Odinn were composite deities, as Apollon, Hermes, >Zeus
>and almost all great gods of IE pantheons. This is the major >obstacle to
>our analysis.

Exactly, so we have to take heed and think in terms of theological
structures rather than individual deities. This same method of analysis is
also true with just reconstructing individual pronouns versus reconstructing
a pronominal structure and grammar (<- much better).

>I agree with you interpretation of XegWnis elements in Shiva. However >I
>believe there's apart from IE Fire-God a different igneous entity,
> >associated to End of World, with reflexes in Shiva, Surtur, >Ashvatthaman
>(Mahabharatta), Kalki, Badava (the Submarine Fire) and >Trojan Fire.

But why another? Aren't you introducing unnecessary complexity? As I have
said, it doesn't make sense that "Fire" should come from the WATERY
Underworld, does it? Fire is a Middleworld element, surely. This is where
having a theological structure for IE myth in place helps to fend off
unlikely scenarios. If you accept Fire coming from the Underworld, then you
will have to rework the concept of the three realms in a feasable way. A
firey Underworld?? Sounds very "Christian".

>But Vishnu-Varuna-Shiva were not Creator-Preserver-Destroyer, the >right is
>Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva as Creator-Preserver-Destroyer.

Oh shoot. I think you're right. I better not quit my day job :) Thanks Joao.

Glen (me):

>Why Sumerian Ea? Perhaps, as I've said, the structure changed. The
> >original structure involves "air/earth/water" but perhaps things >changed
>in India to "air/water/fire" (aka: Vishnu, Varuna, Shiva).
>The "dark" colour of Varuna would be associated with "water". These >three
>elements act on the fourth element: earth. [...]

Joao:

>Ea was the Sumerian of Sea and of Knowledge and Science. I think he had
>some influence in the features of Prometheus.

But why would a Sumerian deity affect Indic mythology?

- gLeN

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