Religion

----- Original Message -----

From: Glen Gordon <glengordon01@...>

To: <cybalist@egroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 12:11 AM

Subject: Re: [tied] Religion

> >OURANOS: The dialetal forms point to WORWANOS or WORHANOS There's the etymology *WORS-ANOS "he of the rain", as a Sky-God.Erh, how do you get "he of the rain" out of *wors-anos?? Are we still talking IE here?>

*Worsanos < *worsa- "rain". You can translate *Worsanos as you prefer: He of the Rain, The Rainy, Master of the Rain, etc. It's just a hypothesis, and it's not mine. But surely we still talking IE.

 

 > >1) Dumezil considered Varuna from *WER- "to bind". Indeed Varuna was a Binder". Indeed, Ouranos "bind" his children, the Titans. > > But how do you fit that with the rest of the word? What's the *-u-nos
> suffix?? Sounds cracked.>

If *WER- was *WERHw-, this can explain the -u

> >2) Other authors considered Varuna from *WEL-, like Lithuanian Velnias
> >"devil", vele "dead", ON valr "dead", Slavic Volos, Veles . So, >*Welunos
> >would be a shapeshifting, terrible god, perhaps underworld.
>
> As I've said before, I don't think that there was a good/evil opposition
> between the Overworld and the Underworld originally. This would come later
> through associations with Christianity.

I agree 100% with you!

> >I think the only PIE Underworld Ruler was
> >the First-Man, judge of dead (Yama, Manu, Mannuz, Yima, Minos).
>
> I'll agree that *Yemos was the protector of the Underworld. I don't think of
> *Yemos as the "first man" but rather as the earth incarnate. *Manus, his
> brother, would be the "first man". Afterall, why would a dead man be our
> ancestor! :)

Well Yama was the Indian king of dead, although he picked the name YAMA what I think was originally of the Hermaphrodit Giant Purusha (cf Ymir and Remus <*Iemus ). So the the original Indian First Man was Manu, but the name Yama came from "Purusha".

> >The Terrible Sovereign (*Weluno-, *Weruno-, *Wa:tno-), was a Dark (India),
> >Binding (India, Roma, Germans) God, controlling the Cosmical >Order (India,
> >Persia, Scandinavia, Roma). He was one-eyed (Celts, >Germans, Roma
> >"humanized" ), and he could paralyze and blind his >enemies through
> >mystical fight, not physical fight. This god was >followed by frantic
> >beast-men or horse-men (Berserkers, Centaurs, >Gandharva).  This god was an
> >oath protector.
>
> Hmm, interesting. However, *wesnos "the dark colour" (green, blue, black)
> seems associated with spring, the commoner caste and the earthly realm. By
> thinking of these colour associations, a dark *Wa:tnos  doesn't seem to fit,
> if he is part of the Overworld, whose colour is "light" (sky blue, white,
> yellow). If this connection only exists in India, maybe it's not an IE
> tradition afterall.

Your interpretation of colour symbolism is so radical and litteral, isn't it?

 

>
> Yet, this association with centaurs (middleworld creatures) would imply that
> *Wa:tnos is indeed a Middleworld figure and therefore "dark". But I get the
> impression that this picture is confused and not accurate in some way.
> Perhaps, because some of these gods (like Varuna) are no doubt composites of
> different mythological figures combined, you are seeing two or more deities
> and confusing them as one?

Surely Varuna and Odinn were composite deities, as Apollon, Hermes, Zeus and almost all great gods of IE pantheons. This is the major obstacle to our analysis.

 
> Vishnu, Varuna and Shiva are "creator", "preserver" and "destroyer",
> respectively. This three way contrast parallels the IE concept of Overworld,
> Middleworld and Underworld beautifully. However, I do not get the impression
> that Vishnu _only_ represents *Dye:us/*Wa:tnos or that Shiva _only_
> represents *Nepo:t/*Pexwrgnnos. There seem to be elements of XegWnis (aka
> Loki) in Shiva and Varuna doesn't seem to fit the original picture unless
> Varuna is made a Middleworld figure. Methinks that the original IE structure
> was zealously reworked in India. If Varuna is truely relatable to *Wa:tnos
> at all, I think we should keep him as a one-eyed, "bright" and wise
> Overworld god and protector of oathes, but unassociated with half-beast
> Middleworld creatures.

I agree with you interpretation of XegWnis elements in Shiva. However I believe there's apart from IE Fire-God a different igneous entity, associated to End of World, with reflexes in Shiva, Surtur, Ashvatthaman (Mahabharatta), Kalki, Badava (the Submarine Fire) and Trojan Fire.

But Vishnu-Varuna-Shiva were not Creator-Preserver-Destroyer, the right is

Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva as Creator-Preserver-Destroyer.

> >In many IE people this Terrible Sovereign was absorbed by the Sky->Father
> >*Dyeu-P@...
>
> Yes, and I think that the reason was that these two gods were a pair,
> representing the Overworld and the priest caste.
>
> >In India, I think this god was influenced by Sumerian Ea and acquired a water-symbolism, turning into a Sea God.
> >These are my points of view. I'm ready to debate. > Why Sumerian Ea? Perhaps, as I've said, the structure changed. The original structure involves "air/earth/water" but perhaps things changed in India to "air/water/fire" (aka: Vishnu, Varuna, Shiva).
> The "dark" colour of Varuna would be associated with "water". These three elements act on the fourth element: earth. Problem solved the gLeN way. :)>

Ea was the Sumerian of Sea and of Knowledge and Science. I think he had some influence in the features of Prometheus.

>
> - gLeN
>
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