?AcLting�xW@... Joao:
>OURANOS: The dialetal forms point to WORWANOS or WORHANOS
>There's the etymology *WORS-ANOS "he of the rain", as a Sky-God.
Erh, how do you get "he of the rain" out of *wors-anos?? Are we still
talking IE here?
>1) Dumezil considered Varuna from *WER- "to bind". Indeed Varuna was a
>"Binder". Indeed, Ouranos "bind" his children, the Titans.
But how do you fit that with the rest of the word? What's the *-u-nos
suffix?? Sounds cracked.
>2) Other authors considered Varuna from *WEL-, like Lithuanian Velnias
>"devil", vele "dead", ON valr "dead", Slavic Volos, Veles . So, >*Welunos
>would be a shapeshifting, terrible god, perhaps underworld.
As I've said before, I don't think that there was a good/evil opposition
between the Overworld and the Underworld originally. This would come later
through associations with Christianity.
>I think the only PIE Underworld Ruler was
>the First-Man, judge of dead (Yama, Manu, Mannuz, Yima, Minos).
I'll agree that *Yemos was the protector of the Underworld. I don't think of
*Yemos as the "first man" but rather as the earth incarnate. *Manus, his
brother, would be the "first man". Afterall, why would a dead man be our
ancestor! :)
>The Terrible Sovereign (*Weluno-, *Weruno-, *Wa:tno-), was a Dark (India),
>Binding (India, Roma, Germans) God, controlling the Cosmical >Order (India,
>Persia, Scandinavia, Roma). He was one-eyed (Celts, >Germans, Roma
>"humanized" ), and he could paralyze and blind his >enemies through
>mystical fight, not physical fight. This god was >followed by frantic
>beast-men or horse-men (Berserkers, Centaurs, >Gandharva). This god was an
>oath protector.
Hmm, interesting. However, *wesnos "the dark colour" (green, blue, black)
seems associated with spring, the commoner caste and the earthly realm. By
thinking of these colour associations, a dark *Wa:tnos doesn't seem to fit,
if he is part of the Overworld, whose colour is "light" (sky blue, white,
yellow). If this connection only exists in India, maybe it's not an IE
tradition afterall.
Yet, this association with centaurs (middleworld creatures) would imply that
*Wa:tnos is indeed a Middleworld figure and therefore "dark". But I get the
impression that this picture is confused and not accurate in some way.
Perhaps, because some of these gods (like Varuna) are no doubt composites of
different mythological figures combined, you are seeing two or more deities
and confusing them as one?
Vishnu, Varuna and Shiva are "creator", "preserver" and "destroyer",
respectively. This three way contrast parallels the IE concept of Overworld,
Middleworld and Underworld beautifully. However, I do not get the impression
that Vishnu _only_ represents *Dye:us/*Wa:tnos or that Shiva _only_
represents *Nepo:t/*Pexwrgnnos. There seem to be elements of XegWnis (aka
Loki) in Shiva and Varuna doesn't seem to fit the original picture unless
Varuna is made a Middleworld figure. Methinks that the original IE structure
was zealously reworked in India. If Varuna is truely relatable to *Wa:tnos
at all, I think we should keep him as a one-eyed, "bright" and wise
Overworld god and protector of oathes, but unassociated with half-beast
Middleworld creatures.
>In many IE people this Terrible Sovereign was absorbed by the Sky->Father
>*Dyeu-P@...
Yes, and I think that the reason was that these two gods were a pair,
representing the Overworld and the priest caste.
>In India, I think this god was influenced by Sumerian Ea and
>acquired a water-symbolism, turning into a Sea God.
>These are my points of view. I'm ready to debate.
Why Sumerian Ea? Perhaps, as I've said, the structure changed. The original
structure involves "air/earth/water" but perhaps things changed in India to
"air/water/fire" (aka: Vishnu, Varuna, Shiva).
The "dark" colour of Varuna would be associated with "water". These three
elements act on the fourth element: earth. Problem solved the gLeN way. :)
>C) Cyril Babaev consider that animals were perhaps the first teophany.
>But, was the Sky-Father ever considered as an animal, or half-animal
>half-human?
Bull, nej?
- gLeN
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