From: João Simões Lopes Filho
Message: 3323
Date: 2000-08-20
----- Original Message -----
From: Glen Gordon <glengordon01@...>
To: <cybalist@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 6:01 AM
Subject: Re: [tied] Re: Dumezil, Trito and Athena: MY IE main Gods
>
> Joao explains:
> >1) *Pexwr-Genos can't explain Fjo"rgynn. Fjo"rgynn <*Perkunos
>
> Then how do we explain the related Indic "Parjanya" with a -j-? What is
> *PerkWnos supposed to mean?
>
> >*DYE:U "Sky-Father, All-Father" < Zeus, Jupiter, Odinn, Dyau/Kashyapa>
>
> Right, well... more like *Dye:us actually. Don't forget the nominative
case
> ending.
>
> >*DYU:NI: "Sky-Mother, All-Mother <Dione, Juno, Aditi, Frigg
>
> Aaaahhh, right! That makes sense. I didn't realise.
>
> >In my opinion there's no Earth-Heaven couple in PIE mythology - this
> > >concept was later influence of Sumerian/Western Asia mythology
>
> In my opinion, there are so many parallels between Middle-Eastern and IE
> mythos as to suggest an expansive mythological area of influence that
> parallels the economic ties that no doubt occured at the same time and
> region.
>
> >their children:
> >*PERKUNOS/PERAUNOS "Thunder-God" <Zeus,Jupiter, Thorr (Odinn), Indra,
> >Perunu>
>
> Zeus-Jupiter gives birth to himself??
>
> >*WA:TNOS "Terrible Sovereign, one-eyed; Master of Beast-men" <Zeus,
> > >Jupiter, Stator, Varuna, Odinn, Lugh>
>
> Hmmm, Piotr's *waxt-?
>
> >*MITROS "Peacemaker, one-handed; Justice and law" <Zeus(Apollon), >Mitra,
> >Tyr, Nuada>
>
> I think *Mitros and *Wa:tnos are in part the same god.
>
> >2) I don't believe *Eryomon = *Manus.
> >[...]
> >*ERYOMEN "Protector of Community; Weddings, Births" <Aryaman, Balder,
> >Eleuthia (female), Juventas(female)>
>
> Well, it makes more sense if "ERYOMEN" was the first human and thus
> equivalent to *Manus. In my mythological scheme, *XeryoManus is the
> representative of the commoner caste (*Xedhnos = priest caste, *PexwrGnnos
=
> warrior caste). As such a representative, he would naturally, therefore,
be
> a "protector of _community_" since the welfare of his human offspring
would
> obviously be of interest to him!
>
> >*BHAGOS "Destiny, Blind" <Bhaga, Ho"dr, Terminus>
>
> Got that. Mentioned by Mallory. Also associated with Zeus-Bagaios and has
to
> do with gift-giving, I think.
>
> >*RUDROS "God of vengeance, Health and Pestilence" <Rudra, Apollon, >Vali>
>
> But... this literally means "red", the color of the warrior caste and a
> symbol of *Pexwr-Gnnos (Mars-Ares). Are you sure this god has a clear,
> seperate function?
>
> >*WISNUS "Savior of Gods; Giant; Space" <Vishnu, Vidarr,
>Herakles/Briareos,
> >Vidarr, Lugh>
>
> Mallory also relates Heracles to his cattle-less *Trito, another hero and
> mortal.
>
> >*EGNIS "Fire; trickster; multiform" <Agni, Loki, Prometheus
> >(Hermes,Hephaistos)>
>
> Yes, that's a winner. More like *XegWnis actually. Mallory relates
> Prometheus and I would associate him as well with Shiva, the destroyer.
>
> >*WE:YUS "Wind; violent; horse-bringer, super-strength" <Vayu, Poseidaon,
> >Thorr>
>
> Don't know about that yet.
>
> >*LA:TRI: "The Night Goddess" <Ra:tri, Leto (Nyx)>
>
> Wouldn't a name like *NekWt make better sense? What's *La:tri:??
>
> >*AUSO:S "The Dawn Goddess" <Mater Matuta, Eos, Ushas, *Austron->
>
> Yep, definitely! *Xeuso:s
>
> >*SWEL "Sun, all-seeing, all-hearing" <Surya, Sol, Apollon (Helios),
> >Heimdallr (!) >
>
> *Sxwe:l, yes, of course.
>
> >Other gods I can't deduce the relationship:
> >*APOM NEPOT "The Child of Waters; Master of Subterraneous Waters" <Apam
> >Napat, Neptunus, Poseidaon, Mimir>
>
> Grandson of *Da:nu, the primordial waters. I think that he is brother with
> *Pexwr-Gnnos (warrior caste/Underworld). His wife would be Xste:r (Venus).
>
> >*? "God of Time; First to Born, first to die <Heimdallr, Bhishma, Lugh,
> >Akhiles (epic doublet), Diana>
>
> Yes, Mallory mentions him too. Perhaps this is also the rehashed story of
> *Yemos' death by the hand of his twin brother, the great ancestor of
> mankind. Thus, the god of time is *Yemos... but he's already associated
with
> the Middleworld (earth) and death.
>
> >Three *ALBHEWES "The Heavenly Artisans <Kyklopes, Rbhus, Goibniu and 2
> >brothers; Ivaldir's children>
>
> Ooh, cool.
>
> >*? "Bright God, three-legged, magic ship, flying horse, master of air
> > >elves"><Freyr, Manawyddan, Manannan, Kubera>
>
> Hmm. For the same argument as *?Rudros, bright colours involve the priest
> caste. Can we be sure that this isn't a later outcropping from *Xedhnos
> (*Waxtnos), the god of the priest caste.
>
> >*? "Dark God, giant; Underworld, master of subterraneous elves" ><Surtur,
> >Bran, Ravana>
>
> Krishna is "dark" too, just like the colour of the commoner caste.
> Therefore, he was more associated with nature and the _Middleworld_ (not
> Underworld). He is possibly yet another embodiment of the Middleworld pair
> *XeryoManus-Yemos. Take note that, in the end, Surtr is the one that burns
> the world in the Apocalypse. Does this mean that Evil or the warrior caste
> wins in the end?? Hardly.
>
> It all makes better sense and becomes cleverly and poetically ironic if
> Surtr et al. are simply embodiments of the commoner caste. Thus, the
> Apocalypse is a simple symbolism suggesting that _we_, the commoners, will
> ultimately do ourselves in, through the use of fire (a _Middleworld_
> element). However, the story ends up being about human perseverance whose
> tale is moulded from the cycle of the three seasons:
>
> Winter (white, Overworld, air, priest)
> Growing Season (green, Middleworld, earth/fire, commoner)
> Harvest Burning (red, Underworld, water, warrior)
>
> Like duh!
>
> >*? "God who lose his head; wise " <Mimir, Bran, Daksha/Ganesha>
>
> Aaah! Yes. Good one.
>
> >*LOUKSNA "THe Moon (female or male? androgynous?), Triple Goddess?"
> > ><Selene, Artemis, Luna, Durga>
>
> I call it *Me:n, personally, and... it's a boy! I think that the Sun is
male
> too who has a horse-wife named Day (possibly giving birth to the Horse
> Twins). Moon's wife is Night, a wolf and hunter. Hence, the wolf chases
the
> horse across the Overworld and Underworld. Makes sense now?
>
> >*WRTA:S" "The three Old Women, Fate" <Parcae(Vorta), Moirai, Nornir
> >(Urd), Three-folded Durga?, Badb?, Rozhenitsa>
>
> I'll think about that. This could dangerously be yet another outcrop of
the
> basic tripartioning of the IE mythos though, so I'm skeptical.
>
>
>
> Hmmm, I think I will make *Da:nu the oldest god (Chaos/Tiamat/Nu).
Sometimes
> associated as a black bird of darkness, *Da:nu lays a seed/egg from which
> grows the great *XWewi-De:ru "Egg-Tree". The Tree grows four branches to
> support the new Overworld (upper egg shell) and four roots that go into
the
> Underworld (lower egg shell).
>
> The four branches are the *xensu: *Dye:us (sky), *Xste:r (love), *Xedhnos
> (priest) and *? (Amphritrite)
>
> The four roots are the *wenu: *Nepo:t (waters), *Dyunis/GWo:u-Mate:r
> (Juno-Hera), *Pexwr-Gnnos (warrior) and *Xreghnis (Seipnir-Arachne)
>
> To make a long story short, the *xensu gods marry the *wenu goddesses and
> the *wenu gods marry the *xensu goddesses. This is a symbolic
> coming-together of two moieties, teehee! From there, everything else is
> born... the sun, the moon, day, night, Horse Twins, the Middleworld, etc.
>
> This way, Grandson (*Nepo:t) and Sky (*Dye:us) were born directly from the
> Egg-Tree and are cousins while *Xedhnos-Dye:us, *XeryoManus-Yemos and
> *PexwrGnnos-Nepo:t are all brother-pairs. Later, this literal family
"tree"
> is rearranged in favor of more likable "humanoid" parents for these two
> groups of deities, via new symbolic associations and cutsy-ootsy
> explanations for the way the cosmos runs itself.
>
> - gLeN
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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