Re: [tied] Athena and Assorted Oddments

This is very smart Rex - different colours for different people.

I don't disagree with much of what you say, and you've misunderstood one thing, due no doubt to my poor grammar.

----- Original Message -----

From: Rex H. McTyeire

To: cybalist@egroups.com

Sent: Friday, 18 August, 2000 5:00 PM

Subject: Re: [tied] Athena and Assorted Oddments

Dennis Poulter again offers wonderful points to which I must respond:

> (John Croft's) The derivation of Athena from At??-Hanahana is "fortement douteux", to say the least.

I'm not sure I track with that either, but I did like the placing of Hanahana as pre-Hittite, and I am not sure if she is limited to Hattic

>If she were derived from Hanahana, this would mean either that the Greeks brought her with them, or >that she was already there amongst the "Pelasgians".

I do like the third clause, Dennis, but I think even the Pelasgians found her already there. She is neolithic.

But is there any evidence? I mean specifically for Hanahana, as opposed to a local earth mother goddess.

>There is no evidence to support either hypothesis. Indeed, if we are to believe Herodotos (and Rex), >the Pelasgians did not have a complex mythology, but instead preferred to lie under oak trees, eating >psychotropic plants, watching the birds and listening to the wind.

Herodotus and I separate on the point. To be fair to him, he was relaying to us what he heard and his limited comprehension of it. I believe it was very complex. Actually, Glen gets close in his sarcasm:

The Tree, first of all, is associated with the creation of the world.
Second, the Tree is designed to seperate the watery underworld from the airy
sky and to provide a middle realm called earth where all humans live. Thus,
the Tree runs through all three realms (Sky/Earth/Water). Beings of all
kind, not just humans, supposedly live in this tree: gods, forest spirits,
nymphs, John, etc. Fourth, if we stop to pause for a moment how silly it is
to put gods and goddesses in trees, we might come to a revelation. It makes
more sense that _birds_ should live in trees.

Birds....just like the ones on the Etruscan shields.

Birds are a very common motif.

>I would remind John, that Linear B is Greek, not Pelasgian,

Since we aren't really sure what Pelasigian was and what the relationship to Greek was: Is that a fair statement?

Yes, agreed, but Linear B is still Greek. So unless Pelasgian is also Greek, then Linear B is not Pelasgian.

>so why is it surprising that there is no mention of "Pelasgian" Titans?

Is not the battle of the Titans possibly an allusion to the complex issue of syncretization between large groups of similar, even distantly related deities in one area consolidated under one leader or state. The resolution of a social problem? Like the Hittites incorporating a mother goddess of some of their population into a new larger pantheon relegated to grandmother status.

Agreed. But my comment was that it is not surprising to not find Pelasgian gods in Greek texts.

>Coming as they do from the end of the Mycenean period, whatever gods are mentioned in the tablets >cannot be adduced as being pre-Greek. In the same vein, Linear B cannot be used to draw any >inferences on pre-Greek Cretan mythology.

They were invented on the spot instantly with followers eager to accept them?

Sorry, my poor grammar. I meant that the Linear B tablets date from the end of the Mycenean period.

. god-equaling Pelasgians sheltering Egyptian and Phoenician refugees, who then by some unknown mechanism made themselves their rulers.

How about the mechanism of previous relationship. As many references to Danaus (Others???) suggest a North African birth, others also suggest he was born to "Greek" royals, and decry the returning sons of Palaecthon after generations abroad being "barbarized".

But maybe his being originally Greek was invented later to soften the impact of the Greeks' having been colonised by Egyptians and Semites, just like the idea that they came as refugees at the end of the Hyksos period. The shaft graves date from early in the Hyksos period, and Danaos, like Kadmos, has a name with deep roots in both Egyptian and Semitic.

> João's equation of Yam with Poseidon is very interesting. This would put Poseidon into a relationship with Egyptian Set, via the identification of Yam with Set, particularly in Hyksos times, and to whom the Hyksos are said to have been particularly devoted. So John may have a point in seeing this as a struggle, but with reference to the Hyksos invasion of and eventual expulsion from Crete.

Have you seen the latest from the digs in Avaris? The Hyksos/Crete relationship may be the reverse of your position. A lot of Minoan art is coming out of Delta ground, including bull dancers.

Yes, a little. One thing it confirms is that there was a close relationship between Crete and Hyksos Egypt, something that has up to now not been recognised. As to the nature of the relationships, if you're implying that Cretan art in the Hyksos capital indicates a Cretan political/economic domination of Egypt, I think that is rather fanciful given their relative sizes, populations etc. On that principal, could we argue that Haitian artists in new York indicate a Haitian domination of the US? In general, artists gravitate to the centres of power and wealth.

> Given that there is no evidence of Greek settlements in the Levant at this period, the natural conclusion is that these myths were brought to Greece by the Levantines.

The Romans adopted a pattern of street layouts with parallel controlled N/S orientation and central plazas for temples and markets that was then applied throughout Europe and continues in US city planning. It was taken from Etruscan models. Curiously similar layouts predating the Roman province have been found in the Levant and nowhere else in the ME.

Interesting, but from what date are these layouts found in the Levant? If they post-date the destructions by the Sea Peoples, then I have no problem with that, given the relations of the Etruscans with the Sea Peoples. Of course, another possibility is that the Etruscans copied these patterns from the Phoenicians, as most experts seem to agree that at some point early in their history in Italy, they came under profound Phoenician influence.

Cheers

Dennis