Re: [tied] The spread of Old European mythology

Regarding the genetics aspect of this post....however thinly populated
Europe was at the time,there will still be DNA markers that can perhaps
indicate where the ancestors of the present day peoples originally came
from.
Catherine

Glen Gordon wrote:

>
> John:
> >Glen, I would hardly call the world authority on comparative
> >mythology, Joseph Campbell an "inane pseudotheory"!
>
> Who said anything about Joseph Campbell?? I was refering to you and your
> mentioning of Mayan and Sumerian myth in a single breath as something
> connectable. They aren't - that's inane.
>
> Connecting "mountain" versions of the world tree or Maori world-views may
> also be a little inane. You may as well have included the Great Turtle too,
> John. What stops your imagination? As another pointed out, the focus of this
> discussion is not simply the telling of a tree but a collection of narrative
> characteristics that always seem to coexist with this central tree,
> recurring time and time again in a wide variety of cultures with astonishing
> uniformity.
>
> Let's talk about this Tree concept so that we don't get too confused like
> John and try relating it to just about any culture with a tree tale:
>
> The Tree, first of all, is associated with the creation of the world.
> Second, the Tree is designed to seperate the watery underworld from the airy
> sky and to provide a middle realm called earth where all humans live. Thus,
> the Tree runs through all three realms (Sky/Earth/Water). Beings of all
> kind, not just humans, supposedly live in this tree: gods, forest spirits,
> nymphs, John, etc. Fourth, if we stop to pause for a moment how silly it is
> to put gods and goddesses in trees, we might come to a revelation. It makes
> more sense that _birds_ should live in trees. By superimposing three main
> embodiments of the Goddess onto this Tree (serpent/bull/bird) which commonly
> represent her in each of the three realms, everything makes more sense. This
> is especially true in connection with myths (cf. Nyx) that see a bird (or
> even a serpent!) creating the universe.
>
> Now, if I was a bird and I was busy flying over primordial waters with
> nowhere to land, I'd want to create a tree to perch on, wouldn't I? Of
> course I would. Thus, it can only be the Bird (Goddess) that creates this
> World Tree in the first place. After all this is explained away, I don't see
> how Mayan myths have anything to do with this. Rather, I _do_ see the
> likeliest origin of this particular World Tree tale.
>
> In all, it seems more likely that it ultimately derived from Europe with the
> Goddess, travelled through into Anatolia and on into the Near East while
> also travelling directly eastward across the steppes and even on into North
> America (Inuktituts and the Raven).
>
> John, concerning the supposed direction of travel of these myths:
> >Sumerian ---> Akkadian ---> West Semitic
>
> Did Sumerians come to the Akkadians? The mountain didn't come to Mohammed
> either. Of course I don't deny that the pre-existing Sumerian myths didn't
> affect the Akkadian myth to some extent. The question is: What came from
> what?
>
> >Great Glen, except they flowed intio the Balkans from Anatolia
>
> Who's they? Are we talking the flow of the mesolithic, flow of the
> agriculture or the flow of Goddess figurines. If mesolithic, you would seem
> to have confusingly shifted your idea from a European origin to now an
> Anatolian one. If agriculture, you are most certainly confused since we are
> speaking about a pre-agricultural era (Y'know, the origin of
> Steppe/IndoTyrrhenian, remember?). If the latter (Goddess figurines), you
> are fighting against evidence to your own embarassment. Please focus.
>
> >Glen, that was what C-S waned to see with the genetic studies, was it
> >trade, or did it mean a movement of people with their bodies (hence
> >gene movements).
>
> John, was what C-S "waned to see with the genetic studies", concerning a
> pre- or post-agricultural time period? If the latter, we should avoid
> speaking of C-S for periods prior to the neolithic since it would be a
> deceptive tool of investigation. Obviously, any large influx of people
> benefiting from agriculture would help to override much of the pre-existing
> thinly populated genetics of Europe and Asia, thereby clouding the picture.
>
> - gLeN
>
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