Re: [tied] Re: Gimbutas.

From: Marc Verhaegen
Message: 3093
Date: 2000-08-12

>I wrote
>> >Linear Pottery didn't come from the Middle East. They developed in
>> >situ from a process of neolithicisation of pre-existing mesolithic
>> >cultures which were in contact with Starcevo-Koros culture which
>> >definitely did come from NW Anatolia. There is no link further
>> >East until 10,500 BCE with the early Natufian.
>
>Marc replied
>> Thanks, John. At that time the Black Sea was a much smaller lake
>> (no Bosporus). C-S's 1st component has its centre far south in the
>> Middle East,so probably LP does not correlate with it. If anything,
>> C-S's 4th component could correlate: S-Balkan & W-Anatolia (but
>> also S-Italy)?
>
>There is an alternative explanation. If the mesolithic "Nostratics"
>came out of Africa, as Glen and I suppose (one thing we do agree on)
>then having the first component in the way it does could be referring
>to that!


Yes, or earlier Out-of-Africa movements?



>I wrote (John)
>> >It is interesting that C-S leaves out of his European data the
>> >Sardinians who are completely different from anyone else.
>> >Sardinian settlement began about 9,000 BCE, long before the
>> >neolithic settlements from the east (measured by 1st component).

>Marc asked
>> Does the 1st component measure this? then it should have its centre
>> in Anatolia rather than in the Middle East?

I meant: does the 1st component measure the neolithic settlements?
The Starcevo-Koros culture came from NW-Anatolia.

>No it doesn't. In fact Sardinians are much further removed from
>Western Europeans than the later are from people of the Middle East,
>the Balkans or Eastern Europe. So much so that C-S was forced in his
>History and Geography of Human Genetics to have a completely separate
>discussion just on the Sardinians. In fact Sardinians are further
>removed genetically than are the Basques, whose language suggests
>that they are the representative of the aboriginal Europeans.

What other populations do they resemble? African ones?

>What does this mean? The most parsimonious explanation is that there
>were two waves out of Africa. The first, the early one, shown most
>by Sardinians but with minor echoes in the Basques and Caucasians,
>coming out 40,000 years ago with the Upper Paleolithic Peoples
>(Aurignancians and Gravetian cultures).

Some questions:
They reached Sardinia only 9000 BC and remained genetically most
"primitive"?
Did these immigrants ca.40 ka come from the Balkan?
No traces of domesticated dogs?
Could immigrants have come via Gibraltar? or from Tunesia via Sicily &
Italy?


>The second and much more recent one,
>associated with bows and arrows, and microliths (from Africa) and
>domestication of the dog (in the Middle East), associated with the
>coming of the Nostratics. This could be the one measured by C-S's
>first component (which being more recent, and being reinforced by the
>coming of agriculture, shows up so much the stronger).


>I wrote
>> >Their closest affiliations are with the Viskayans and with the
>> >Caucasians to the East - suggesting the Dene-Caucasian hypothesis
>> >may be proven genetically.
>
>Marc replied
>> Yes, the islands of Crete, Sardinia, Corsica etc. are "forgotten"
>> on his maps!
>
>Corsica in his data shows itself to be close to the Ligurian Italian
>coast and the Bouches de Rhone. Sicily is intermediate between
>Messina and Tunisia, Crete is intermediate between Anatolia and
>Greece. Only Sardinia sticks out like a sore thumb. Regards John


Puzzling. I believe Corsica & Sardinia were connected during the glacials?
Why are Corsican & Sardinian populations so different genetically?
Just curious.

Thanks -Marc