In reply to my
> >Khazar history speaks of
> >Khagan Bulan, (whose mother WAS Jewish), "called upon the
> >representatives of Judaism, Christianity and Mohammedanism to
> >expound
> >their doctrines before him. This discussion convinced him that the
> >Jewish faith was the most preferable, and he decided to embrace it.
> >Thereupon he and about 4,000 Khazars were circumcised"
Pavel wrote
> Well, to me it seems to be a later inset. There were many things
> invented to account for the Khazars being taken into Judaism (I
> remember that the3re was a belief that the Khazars were "the lost
> tribe of [Idon't remember whom]". They don't seem to come from
> Canaan, tyhough, so
> they can't be a Jewish tribe. Ergo, the fact was invented.
I agree that the "lost tribes" myth has been used to death and over
and over again in different circumstances (See the British Israelite
Society). But it would seem that the Bek Bulan was installed as a
reaction to a Khagan turning Muslim as a result of Marwan
al-Ummayyad's war, and that Khazars were affraid of being swallowed
up
in the Muslim world. The fact that Bulan had a Jewish mother, and
that Judaism was independent from both Christian Byzantium and the
Muslim Ummayyads was what recommended it. I don't see why you say
this explanation was made up after the event.
To my point
> >The Khazar ruling class were "real" Khazars. By the time of
> >Khagan Obediah, Jewish Khazars were everywhere, and evidence shows
> >pagan Khazar symbols in grave yards had completely disappeared to
> >be replaced with Jewish icons.
Pavel wrote
> Whom did they "rule" then? themselves?
The Khanate ruled a "goulash" as Marc posted, of Magyars, Oghuz,
Pechenegs, Alans, Greeks (in Kerch and Chersonesse), Chechens and
even
Varangians, as well as nomadic and sedentary (farming and trading)
Khazars.
Pavel continued
> The disappearance of pagan
> symbols may be as well explained by the fact that Khazar religion
> was persecuted by the ruling Jews.
Persecution would have led to religious refugees, and there is no
evidence of any religious persecution at all in the Khazar Realm.
There is no case to show that it did. Tengri seems to have been
adopted as Yahweh (in the same way as it was later fully incorporated
in Lamaistic Buddhism of Kubulai Khan).
Pavel again
> Besides, AFAIK, the Khazars just didn't
> have actual graveyards, they left their dead lying on tops of hills.
Khazar graves are now being found widely spread throughout the north
Caucasas and Euxine-Caspian region. Some are even found in Hungary.
> >> AFAIK The Khazar people (not the nobiltiy, but the herders of the
> >delta)
> >> retained the original Steppe religion (we don't know whether it
> >> was paganistic or the monetheistic Tengri-khan belief). THEY
> >didn't "choose"
> >> Judaism, they fell victims to the Jewish rule.
Certainly earlier beliefs took time to disappear. In the period from
740 to 800 there was a slow rate of attenuation. With the rulers
accepting Judaism, rewards for conversion would have been high. But
certainly by 820 the process of conversion was almost complete, even
in the delta. Seljuk, the Oghuz founder of the Seljuk rule was
clearly Jewish, so this shows that the Jewish nature of the state
reached non Khazar subject peoples. The finds of Jewish relics
amongst the Magyar in Transylvania also confirms this. It would have
been similar to the way that Dhimmi people of the Book came to accept
Islam in the years of the Ommayyad and Abbusid Khalifates.
I wrote
> >There was not much "victimisation" here. Certainly no persecution
> >or forced conversions at the point of a sword (like there were for
> >Christianity). The Khazar realm was amazingly tollerant. Saint
> >Cyril, who established orthodoxy amongst the Slavs tried to convert
> >the Jewish Khazars but had no luck, they were happy with their
> >faith (far from being victims). He shifted the focus of his
> >missionary activity - with the results that history confirms.
Pavel replied
> The realm WAS tolerant, and that was the reason that a trade colony
> of the rahdonites in Semender grew into a ruling class. I believe
> that there WAS persecution. That's the usual thing when you chage a
> religion. The ruling Jews, I believe, didn't care much for the
> Khazar people, so lonmg as they gave them something to eat.
I would like to ask you for evidence here, as from all I have seen,
the neighbouring peoples (Arabs like Ibn Fadlan, Byzantine scholars
etc) made no destinction between "ruling class", "Jews" and "Khazar
people". If there WAS persecution, as you argue, it certainly
produced no evidence in the historical records, no burning of
churches
or mosques of rival faiths, no refugees fleeing to get away from
under
the control of the sectarians, no hoarded wealth hidden by departing
members committed to the faith of their fathers, such as Jews left
when they suffered pogroms.
Pavel, I would like to ask you another question. From your posts it
seems that you WANT to have evidence of Jewish persecution of pagan
Khazars, even when there is no MATERIAL evidence. I know that there
has been an anti-Semitic trend to recent Russian neo-paganism (there
are some interesting posts on the web, particularly in relation to
the
Jewish Khazars, and the spread of Christianity).
I personally have no desire to prove matters one way or the other.
Jewish Abraha invaded Mecca in 570 (The Year of the Elephant -
Mohammed's birth). The Jewish revolt of CE 66 - 70 and later Bar
Kochba's revolt in Emperor Hadrian's time, and Jewish-Greek riots in
Alexandria and elsewhere shows Jews (like others) were not
historically against violence where such strategies could be seen to
protect their interests, but the "bad" Jewish - "poor" Khazar
"victim"
polarity that you propose is not found historically. It only exists
in modern anti-Semitic ideology.
Hope this helps
Regards
John