Re: [tied] Re: Croatian: Etymology

----- Original Message -----

From: Pavel Iosad

To: cybalist@egroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 11:50 AM

Subject: RE: [tied] Re: Croatian: Etymology

 

I said:

My information is mostly what the online Britannica gives, plus the web sites they provide:

 

http://www.khazaria.com/

 

Yes, if your mother was Jewish at the time of your birth, you are Jewish.  But one can also convert to Judaism, and it is conversion, at least among the upper classes, which is the present case. The child of a  converted  Jewish  mother is as Jewish by birth as any other Jew. 

 

AFAIK, Judaism is mainly the belief that Jews are the chosen people, and thus, to a Jew, the conversion to Judaism would seem as an attempt to sneak to the chosen people. The Jews didn't willingly let others convert to Judaism, and there weren't many people willing to convert.

The rabbi will willingly convert you, depending on your desire and its circumstances -- at least here in the West. It depends on the rabbi, and the situation. Conversions are usually maritally-related, just like with us Christians (one of my sisters married a *Catholic*; her boys are Methodist).

 

In theological terms, why should one NOT want to 'sneak to the chosen people'? Gee. The knowlege that you are are one of the elect of God feels good.

 

It is not easy being a Jew. As you say, they believe they are God's chosen people. As God's chosen people, they must be a light unto the nations. They are under divine obligation to be ethical. God requires them to be a light to those who would/did send them to the ovens. The Roman Catholic term for this is 'we are all called to be saints'.

 

I said:

The Khazars are obscure, and would be virtually forgotten was it not for the religious connection. While their language is said to be Turkic, when  dealing with Steppe peoples, language and ethnicity have to be carefully looked at. The Khazars certainly did not meet the usual expectation of   nomadic  Turkics wandering west, but were rather sedentary. Their center was also the Volga-North Caucusus, which raises additional questions. This region  is  an ethno-linguistic goulash. Language replacement would seem to be a factor here. Turkic may have been their chancery language/lingua franca.

 

You said:

It seems that the Khazars themselves were nomads who settled down in the region, and, having fought off the Alans and the pressing Arabs, established a thriving Caganate. However, late they fell victims to the Arabic onslaught, and were pressed north into the Volga delta. And then the Jews, who were persecuted in the Islam states, came there. The power went to offsrpings of Khazar men, and Jewish women, because such a child would be a Khazar (which gave all the advantages as a son of a Khazar noble), and a Jew by virtue of being a son of a Jewess. The real Khazars, who had no dealings with Jews, just didn't pop up.

I say:

My knowledge of the Khazars is slight, as I said. The religious connection is what makes them memorable. So far as I know, they were genuine Jews, according to ha-lacha (rabbinical law).

 

I said:

for the religious issue, it is to be noted they fought off the Islamics near the Caspian; they also seem to have not been on the best terms with the   Byzantines. Instead of Christianity or Islam, they seem to have chosen Judaism as a way to keeping apart from either.  It should also be stressed, I  think,  is that normative Rabbinical Judiasm was not the monolithic thing it is today. 

 

You say:

AFAIK The Khazar people (not the nobiltiy, but the herders of the delta) retained the original Steppe religion (we don't know whether it was paganistic or the monetheistic Tengri-khan belief). THEY didn't "choose" Judaism, they fell victims to the Jewish rule.

 

I say:

We seem to be agreed that 'Khazaria' was a genetically, ethnically, linguistically, and religiously mixed confederacy, something not too unfamiliar when discussing the situation on the Steppe.

 

We are at a time in history when paganism really did die. All those gods, all those stupid stories about them. And all those warlords spreading religion in the name of their now-monotheistic god.

 

Food for thought. Do you know that more than half of Christendom just about the time Genghis Khan manifested himself was Nestorian? And that most of the Nestorian Christians were Mongolian? Yeah. Paganism had died.

 

I said:

There is a lot of controversy here. It's a fascinating question, though.  

 

You said/replied: 

Yes, it is 

I really don't know of any Western scientists who worked on the subject, but in Russia L. Gumilev and M. Artamonov are worth mentioning.