Re: [tied] Re: Gimbutas.

From: Mark Odegard
Message: 3036
Date: 2000-08-09

Piotr:  As for Corded Ware, its origin is certainly more complex than in Childe's and Gimbutas's theories: some steppe influence, but also continuous development at old TRB sites. There may be a grain of truth in the élite-dominance scenario, but in most cases an élite outnumbered by the locals doesn't manage to change their language.

Marc:  Do you think so? IMO the upper class can & does impose their language, at least after several generations. This is what we saw in Gallia (Latin replaced Celtic up to the Rhine, later the invading Germanic tribes replaced Latin in N & E Gallia up to line that connects the capitals of the bishoprics). Brussels 100 years ago was Dutch-speaking except for the palace & government (the bourgeoisie, as in all cities in N-Belgium, spoke both, but wrote in French), now it's mostly French-speaking, although in other N-Belgian cities the French-speaking upper class has disappeared. Only in England the Normans did not impose their language, but they were a very small minority. In France, French replaces all other dialects & languages. In Germany, Low-German is disappearing. In the Netherlands, Frysian has almost disappeared. In Great Brittain, Welsh is disappearing. The best example is perhaps that even Ireland speaks English.

Piotr:  But perhaps it was the élite who didn't speak IE? Perhaps their influence was only cultural and they assimilated linguistically to their ex-TRB subjects? It would be Gimbutas a rebours. Food for thought.


The question is language replacement, and just how and when it can occur. There are two basic patterns.
 
1. With elite dominance, the usual pattern is for the elite language to be replaced by that of the common folk. Only rarely does it replace the autochthonous language.
 
2. With migrations/invasions, the original language may persist; it may replace other languages, or co-exist for a very long time indeed.
 
The dominance of Latin, and its replacement of Gallic is a case of #2. Latin was indeed the elite language, but the Gauls were a conquered people ruled by a Latin-speaking elite for close to 500 years. Latin was the chancery language of an empire. Something similar happened in Iberia; Vasconic did survive in its mountain fastness.
 
In Ireland, English has been the elite language, the chancery language for as long as English has been the elite language of England. Irish has persisted, but is indeed threatened. In North Wales, Welsh is flourishing, so I'm told, and seems completely unthreatened, notwithstanding English dominance for a longer period than Ireland has suffered it.
 
The big problem with the Gimbutas model is explaining how an IE-speaking Kurgan culture imposed its language throughout northern Europe. It's easier to see the Steppe-derived intruders losing their language. But for this to be true, you have to say IE moved from the west and/or north and imposed itself onto elements of the steppe -- elements that became Indo-Iranian etc.
 
This last model is attractive, but creates problems regarding religious questions. You have to say PIE was spoken by a culture that had borrowed parts of it's world-view from the Steppe.
 
Mark.