Re: [tied] Re: IE, AA, Nostratic and Ringo

From: Dennis Poulter
Message: 2922
Date: 2000-08-02

Well, thank you all for your prompt replies.
Firstly Piotr, why IEists? Mainly for your second reason I assure you. But mostly because IEists would have the data available to refute or dispute the derivations Bernal puts forward.
Let me assure you, especially Guillaume, I am not a blind devotee of Bernal (although I really don't care whether he was a communist or not), and I find some of his derivations highly suspect purely on the logic of the arguments he puts forward. I don't have the resources to really investigate for myself - although I may soon be coming back to UK and may be able to do more in this area (time permitting).
Nevertheless, my principal antagonists on this list have been arguing from the standard viewpoint - little or no contact with Egypt, and what contact there was was due to Greek initiative, Cretan/Mycenean thalassocracy, culture flow from north to south, Mediterranean/Asianic substratum etc.
 
Nevertheless, so far we have a rejection rate of approx. 20% of the words proposed (all culled from Bernal - I don't dare at this stage propose any of my own speculations). I bow to your superior knowledge on these matters, although I disagree with Guillaume's translation of qdS - it may have carried this meaning of "royal glory" in 1st millennium Hebrew, but there is no hint of this that I can see in the (not very extensive) Phoenician word list I have, and certainly not in any of the forms of this productive root in Arabic.
Of course, the primary problem in a rigorous correlation of Greek to Egyptian, is that of the actual pronunciation of Egyptian. Here the hieroglyphs conceal more then they reveal, particularly in New Kingdom Egyptian, which by all accounts was radically different from the Classical (Middle Egyptian) hieroglyphic, but which would have been the form of the language which had most impact on Greek. As Piotr states, the phonetics of Egyptians are by no means settled, and all three languages involved here - Egyptian, West Semitic and Greek - underwent extensive change during the period in question. Greek renditions of Egyptian names also show a bewildering variety of phonetic correspondences.
Picking up on Guillaume's "sus" from Aryan as'va, is it possible that the initial 'h' of hippos is due to "contamination" between the inherited ekwos and the Semitic, borrowed from Indo-Aryan, but all of which seem to show an initial 's', Heb. su:s, Ak. si:su:, Ug. ssw (with acute accents on the esses)? If so, this may have some consequence on the nature, extent and ethnic composition of the Hyksos.
So, thank you all once again for your prompt responses. Whatever one's views of Bernal et al., there seems to me to be a prima facie case worth investigating, which could shed light on many of the problems surrounding the Greek lexicon, Egyptian pronunciation, the history of the BA Aegean, and the religions and mythologies of the region.
 
Cheers
Dennis