----- Original Message -----
From: Glen
Gordon <glengordon01@...>
To:
<cybalist@egroups.com>
Sent:
Thursday, June 01, 2000 12:25 AM
Subject: Re: [TIED] Itchy and Scratchy
Stops
Ah, this! I should have remembered G&I's derivation, but
there'a a lot of lexical gymnastics in their book :). Have you read it? Their
brand-new IE phonemes (*s^, *q, etc.) have not kindled much enthusiasm in the
linguistic circles so far; nor have their sensational IE etymologies for
elephants and monkeys.
But to the point. The reconstructable
prototype of apple, epli, jabloko, jabLko, afal, úll, Abella, Avalon (<
Emhain Abhlach), etc., is rather different from *amlu/*samlu. It is
*abo:l-/*abl-o- for the fruit and *abel-jo-, *abel-no-, *abl-o:n- or
*ab@...:n- for the tree (*@ instead of *a would work too). There are of course
more cognate words in the branches mentioned by McCallister. The most likely
common denominator for all these shapes is *abo:l (*x(a)bol-) with regular
ablaut in the case forms (*abl-ó-) and derivatives (*abel-jo- etc.). There is no
convincing evidence either for an old *-m-, nor for a *-u- stem (in Slavic
*ablUko the yer (*U) goes with the diminutive suffix).
It's true that in a number of IE branches
(including Celtic, Italic, Greek and Indo-Iranian) and possibly in PIE itself
*ml-, *mr-, *nr- > *bl-, *br-, *dr- word-initially (actually OIrish tolerated
some ml-/bl- variation, as in mlicht/blicht, cf. Welsh blith 'milk' <
*mlik-t- < *m@...). But the intervocalic reflexes are invariably *-mbl-,
*-mbr-, *ndr- (if -ml- etc. are not tolerated). I've never heard of such
clusters suffering nasal loss in medial positions, either in PIE or in later
developments. The different treatment of *NR initially and medially can be
illustrsted with Greek examples:
brotos (*mrotos < *m@...) 'mortal' :
ambrosia (< *a-mrot-ia)
blo:sko: (*mlo:-sko: < *m@...:) :
reduplicated perfect memblo:ka (*me-mlo:-)
ane:r 'man' (*x(@)ne:r) : Gen. andros : dro:ps
(probably < *nr-o:kW-s)
Stop epenthesis (with the nasal intact) in such
clusters is extremely common cross-linguistically, as in English thunder,
thimble (without a medial stop even in Old English) or French sembl- < Latin
simul-, while I know of no change like -ml- > -bl- (medially, of course).
*amlu- could have yielded *amblu- but I fail to see how *ablo- could be
derived from it.
The lengthening of the initial vowel in
Balto-Slavic is a regular instance of Winter's Law (lengthening between plain
voiced stops, in traditional terms). Winter's Law is a common BSl change, and
the Balto-Slavic reflexes generally look rather archaic. For this reason I'm
reluctant to accept Theo Vennemanns theory that the word is "Atlantic", i.e.
brought to Europe by his hypothetical Atlantiker (Afroasiatic speakers) and
borrowed west to east by the northern IEs. *abo:l is indeed dialectal
(restricted to Celtic, Germanic, Baltic, Slavic and maybe Italic), but if it's a
Wanderwort of the European Plain, it seems to have travelled east to west at an
early date.
As for Vennemann's risky attempt to connect it
with Afroasiatic *'abol 'genitals, testicles', see
As I said, I don't accept it, though I must
admit that phonologically *'abol is a damn sight better tham *samlu, with or
without the *s.
My conclusion is that the Anatolian word is not
related to *abol-, nor is the southern dialecticism, *maxl- (Latin ma:lus,
Greek me:lon, ? Hitt. mahla-). Whether the LATTER can be connected with Hittite
sam(a)lu, Skt. a:mra- 'mango' and vaguely similar words in neighbouring families
(Turkic *alVma, cf. Alma Ata = Abella 'Appleton'), is a different
question.
Piotr
> > And *(s)amlu
is...? And what's this optional *s? Talking of
> > >illusions, "alim
~ samlu" doesn't look too good. With so much
>metathetic
>
>freedom you might just as well add lemon as a cognate ;) .
>
>
Ah, Piotr. A skeptic to the end. That's why I love you. You're the
perfect
> devil's advocate :) The *s- is seen in Anatolian languages and I
presume
> that the phenomenon is related to the optional *s- found
elsewhere in IE
> verbs, not to mention the Semitish loan *(s)teuros
"bull" (Semitic *Tawru
> with initial dental fricative).
>
>
Searching the LinguistList.org archives for the IE List, I
got
McCallister's
> etymology. On the Nostratic List was a post on this
topic as well
regarding
> G&I's proposal. Here's a synthesis of the
viewpoints (including my own)
> presented so far between the Nostratic and
IE lists:
>
> *(s)amlu- "apple,
fruit"
> Germanic
*ap(a)laz
> OE
aeppel; OHG apful
>
Celtic
> OIr uball,
Welsh afal
>
Italic
> Oscan
Abella "apple town"
>
Balto-Slavic
> O Sl
ablűko; OCS jabl'ko; Lith. óbuolas
>
Anatolian
*sam(a)la-
> Hitt.
samaluwanza "apple tree", Palaic samluwa-
>
> Miguel Carrasquer
Vidal states March 8, 1999 on the LinguistList.org
> Nostratic
List:
>
> "Gamqrelidze & Ivanov reconstruct PIE
*s^amlu-, with *s^, which,
> according to them, gives
zero outside of Anatolian (sakuwa ~
> *okw- "eye",
sankui- ~ *onogh- "nail, claw")."
>
> Now, I'm not sure about this
new *s^ phoneme that goes zero but if we
> reconstruct *(s)amlu-, at
least, things are less speculative. I'd like to
> know where this word was
borrowed from too. Semitish **Tamlu:, perhaps?
> Buddha only
knows.
>
> - gLeN
>
>
>
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