Re: [TIED] Re: AfroAsiatic

First John, I want to thank you for all this excellent information.
Excuse me if I'm being obtuse, but I still remained unconvinced of (from
your maps) a northern African origin of the AfroAsiatic dispersal.
In fact the information you supply seems to provide more proof of a point of
origin in eastern Africa, if not modern Ethiopia per se, but in that general
region.
You also seem to provide evidence for a very early presence of Semitic in
the Near East.
So, on to the (important) details :

>
>
> Firstly the arid period (associated with the maximum glacial advance
> of 18,000 BCE) only lasted for a short period. From 16,000 BCE
> glaciers were well in retreat and rains returned to the Sahara (This
> was the period where the Cordilleran coridor was opened between the
> Rockies glaciers and the Laurentide eventually allowing paleo-Archaic
> Amerindians into North America)
>

But, you still have 2000 years of no habitation, followed by perhaps another
4000 years until the appearance of the Oranian industry (according to EB
Oranian and Ibero-Maurusian are just different names for the same thing).
So, the Aterian people must have died out completely. So the
Oranian/Ibero-Maurusian must have come from somewhere else, i.e. the
Equatorial regions where HSS had already had a microlithic tradition going
back millennia.

> Secondly, the Mediterranean was never "icy". Morocco probably had
> the
> climate of Southern France. It had managed to maintain a
> biodiversity
> unlike anything in Europe or the Sahara, and was eminently placed for
> cultural experimentation.

But no people from 18000-16000BCE.

> Thus we find Aterian to Oranian to
> Ibero-Maurasian to Capsian, all very distinct with quite different
> assemblages, but all clearly in an evolutionary sequence from the
> same
> cultural grouping. And Capsian leads into neolithic and early bronze
> age cultures - going right through to Ancient Egypt.

But, again, no people between Aterian and Oranian.

>
> The Sahara was a tabula rasa 18,000 BCE (after the
> disappearance of the Aterian derived peoples), but by 10,000 BCE it
> was filled with game and hunter gatherers. Rivers ran and inland
> seas
> were large. Paintings show hunters swimming!
>

But there was a tabula rasa, just some 6000 years or so earlier.
This earlier dating means I no longer need to posit some kind of Aterian
survival to account for the Oranian industry, since people now have plenty
of time to get across the Sahara.

> > Where did the people of the Capsian industry come from?
>
> He answers
> >It seems most likely from the homines sapientes sapientes of East
> >Africa, who would have continued to advance their techniques ...
>
> You are here going against the modern archaeological construction of
> African pre-history. Dennis, Hss had spread from East Africa to
> North
> West Africa much much earlier than this.

But you still have an empty Sahara at 18000BCE. Nevertheless, you could be
right about Oranian leading to Capsian. On the other hand, Capsian could
have been an influx of newcomers who took over the Oranian tradition.

> They were in Palestine at
> least from 90,000 years ago, and had probably replaced Archaic Hs at
> least between 90-100,000 BCE. The industry and art that you speak of
> from 8,000 BCE (and in fact earlier, which shows connection with the
> other African microlithic traditions) is of Khoisanid cultures. They
> show clear continuity with Khoikhoi (Hottentot) and San (Bushmen).
> Unless you are arguing that A-A derived from the click languages of
> these people, you have the archaeology all wrong.
>

I'm not sure I understand you right here. Are you saying that the art found
at, for example Tassili n Ajjer in southern Algeria, is Khoisanid?
Anyway, I'm certainly not arguing for an AA derived from Khoisan languages.

> Dennis wrote
> > Pottery and cattle-herding.
> Yes the Khartoumi pottery is
> very
> old, but not as old as the Saharan. It is also older than the Gamble
> Cave. In fact the earliest finds of pottery are in the western
> Sahara. It spread to the Sudan, and from there to Kenya and to
> southern Egypt (via the Western Oases). Have a look at the recent
> Times Atlas of the World, it has an excellent map of the spread of
> pooery cultures around the world that illustrates the movement very
> well!
>

Okay, EB misinformed me. But it doesn't change very much.

>
> Dennis, this is contradicted by the clear presence of very old
> Semitic
> loan words in Ancient Egyptian. Nile flooding and swamps there may
> have been, but to an ovicaproid pastoralist, the swamps are no
> burden,
> they just move down the valley parallel to the Nile for as far as
> they
> can go. This route (incl Wadi Tumalit and the other Eastern Desert
> Wadis that would have been wetter - providing good wateringholes and
> lusher pastures at this period) was no barrier.
>

This is roughly what I was saying, that the Near Eastern infiltration was
basically east of the Nile. Can you give any examples of these old Semitic
loans into Egyptian. Not that I doubt what you say, but they could prove
interesting with regard to the development and movements of the Semitic
dialects.

> >So, the main avenue for the peopling of the Nile valley would have
> >been from the south, from Equatorial Africa.
>
> No - sorry. The clearest evidence shows the peopleing of the Nile
> Valley was from the Sahara. People continually moving in during the
> arid phases, and staying in the Nile during the following improving
> wet. New cultures coming from North Africa would move out onto the
> Sahara in the wet, and would move again into the Nile Valley during
> the dry that followed. The pattern continues down to historical
> times. Thus the Dynasty 18 Shayu were followed by the Dynasty 19
> Meshwesh (Maxyes) and the Dynasty 20-21 Libu (Libyans), all moving
> out
> from the west and trying to settle in the Nile Valley.
>

Yes, I've no doubt there were movements into the Nile valley from west, east
and south.

> >This seems to be borne out by Herodotos' descriptions of Egyptians
> >even in his time, as black with woolly hair.
>
> This was after Tarqha's Nubian dynasty. Nubians had come to Egypt as
> the governing elite prior to the Assyrian invasion under Esarhaddon.
> Prior to that, during the Egytpian Empire large numbers of Nubians
> were introduced as War Captives. You know, as do I that the
> Egyptians
> from the Old Kingdom on were not "black". Men were coloured orange-
> red and women (kept indoors) were yellow-white. Skeletally they were
> what is called "Eurafrican" and "Mediterranean".
>

Herodotos also used this description to account for his hypothesis that
Colchis was an ancient Egyptian colony (together with circumcision and
methods of weaving), so I don't think he only had Taharqa and his Nubians in
mind.
I don't want to get into "what colour were the Egyptians", but I would only
comment :
1. artistic convention
2. use of cosmentics - skin lightening creams are very widely used amongst
urban African women
3. differentiation between aristocrats and peasants, who are normally dark
in the pictures
3. in Egyptian pictures where foreigners are shown, a distinguishing feature
of the Egyptians is their dark skin colour
4. incomers from the west would have been dark-skinned Africans. I know
about the Berbers, but I think they are a much later phonemenon - possibly
post Sea Peoples. Earlier Libyans, Nobatai and Nigretes were seen to be
black, as was the Libyan goddess Neit.

> > What evidence do you have for Asiatic elements in Naqadah I and II?
>
> Heaps. The Gebel Arak knife, cylendar seals, crenellation of temple
> walls, high prowed boats, styles of dress, animal styles on palattes,
> the introduction of the war mace, boule for accounting purposes....
> the list goes on and on.
>

Okay. Accepted.

> The Qostul cemetry is too late for the "Dynastic Race" Dennis. The
> entry point of the Dynastic Race with their high prowed boats is
> clearly shown through the Eastern Desert Wadis.
>

Qostul is contemporaneous with Naqadah I/II.
Basically, I don't believe in a "Dynastic Race". Maybe these high-prowed
boats, depicted at Qostul, were going the other way?
Menes and the earliest kings of united Egypt are clearly seen as coming from
Upper Egypt.

> >There is also a palace(?) wall reminiscent of the funeral house of
> >Zoser (3rd dynasty). There are also some indecipherable signs - the
> >precursors of hieroglyphics?
>
> No, copies of hieroglyphs
>

I don't think so. These pre-date Narmer's Pallette, and the pictograms of
the hieroglyphs are clearly fundamentally African in their imagery.

> Storms in Unas's pyramid, Dennis. News to me - I thought it shows
> that the Nile was reduced to a trickle. Mass famine resulted, people
> are shown with distended malnourished and ribs clearly shown.

The text is devotional, not historical.

So, the only problem I find with your Saharan hypothesis is the 18000-16000
gap. And for me, this still leaves Semitic coming across the Horn of Africa
and up through Arabia, with proto-Egyptian languages moving northwards on
both sides of the Nile valley, Berber (possibly) heading north-west, Chadic
west where it became very influenced by Bantu (Niger-Kordofanian), with
Cushitic and Omotic roughly staying put.
It's given me a lot of food for thought, though. Thanks again.

Cheers
Dennis