Re: Fw: [cybalist] Re: Tyrrhenus (was Easter)

Glen wrote of my Kobystan connection with PIE

> That's all correct, but the cultural connections here have nothing

to do

> with IE. They can't. They would be a group of people and cultures

with

> non-IE languages that had an ancient link to the southeast. The

likeliest

> possibility is that they spoke ancient NWC- and NEC-related tongues.

This is possible, but some archaeologists have seen clear cultural
connections between Kobystan and the mesolithic
Dneipr-Bug/Dnesitr-Donetz culture, out of which the neolithic
Srendny-Stog (PIE?) developed. If this is the case we have here the
way that PIE developed from late Nostratic-Eurasiatic languages shown
by a chain of intermediate cultures - from Zarzian to Sredny-Stog.

> There seems to be support _against_ the notion that these

particular

> cultures had spoken IE. If this is what you're using to claim a

northward IE

> route through the Caucasus, John, you must satisfactorily explain

the change

> in direction of cultural influence that you mention above. The

cultural

> influence was first running from south->north as you describe but

then

> started running north->south (a direction AGAINST your IE spread)

after 7000

> BCE.

First of all the reversal in direction did not start as early as
7,000
BCE. The reversal in direction seems to have been after 5,500 BCE
with the domestication of the horse, which gave a tactical advantage
to pastoralism - particularly in the increasing aridity of that later
phase. Prior to that during the Atlantic (warm-wet-humid) phase,
firstly the spread of mesolithic cultures occurred from the
south and west to the north and east, followed by neolithic cultures
moving in the same direction onto the steppes and Ural slopes.

> I would argue that the IE (coming from the north to the Black Sea)

were the

> source of this upheaval, trading with cultures to the west and

breaking the

> original links. Since the IE were benefiting from the west, the

eastern

> cultures would have began trading with and being influenced by

these
new IE

> speakers. This explanation seems to work but I can't see how one

can
explain

> this if IE comes through the Caucasus from the south.

Glen - You say here you see IE moving from the north to the Black
Sea??? From where? Out of the Birch forests of the northern
Ukraine? This doesn't make sense....

You originally wrote

> >>I love these questions but I don't think the rising of the Black
> >>affected IE's development or the breakup of "IndoUralic" at all

(which

> >>would be circa 9000 BCE if Bomhard is correct).

I replied

> >Such an early date definitely places the breakup in the mesolithic
> >period.

You responded

> Yes, mesolithic. "IndoUralic", "UralAltaic", Bomhard's special use

of the

> Greenbergian term "Eurasiatic" and my own term "Steppe" are

synonymous and

> very much mesolithic.

If this is the case you would argue that the split occurred during
the
9,100-8,000 BCE Murzak-Koba and 8,500-7,000 BCE Grebenki phases, and
you would deny the link between Kobystan and Dneip
r-Bug/Dnesitr-Donetz
cultures. If this is the time and place where Eurasiatic split (and
not as I suggest out of the Zarzian complex) then you have even more
difficulty getting the connections between Uralic-Yukaghir to work at
all archaeologically.

<Snip> I wrote

> >[Lake Van to Catal Huyuk] is a region too far to the north to have
> >had Semitic speakers.

Glen replied

> Really? Well, if even Lake Van was too far north, how far south was
> Kartvelian?? How do Semitic words end up in this reconstructed

language?

> You're assuming that the state of affairs during 3000 BCE is what

we
had

> from early on. It's doubtful the case and you ignore the linguistic

links

> time after time. At least get the names straight next time. Can you

explain

> the Kartvelian loans for me?

Yes - it came from a common source - the substrate languages that
taught farming to both the Afro-Asiatic Semites coming into the
Middle
East from Africa, and the Kartvellian mesolithic peoples living in
Georgia.

In reply to my point

> >I have a powerpoint presentation that traces these movements from

the

> >Upper Paleolithic onwards, [...] These three could be stored on

the

>Files
> >section of cybalist if people want. What do the cybalist people
>think?

Glen wrote

> This is an excellent idea. Anything that helps to visualize the

discussion

> would be very helpful. It's sometimes hard to get a picture of the

geography

> from one's head and it would also help to consolidate a general and

informed

> consensus on the topic. I created some linguistic maps of my own

but
I'm so

> lazy to put things up :(

Pity, would be interesting to see the movements you seem keen on
insisting on in visual form.

Regards

John