Re: [cybalist] Black Sea Flood etc.

From: Mark Odegard
Message: 2310
Date: 2000-05-02

My first question is what software package you used to overlay the Black Sea map to show the pre-5500 BCE shoreline.
 
My second comment is that you also need to add the fact that world-wide sea-level was 50 feet lower at this time. Samothrace, for example, was a peninsula.
 
The natural migratory/invasion approaches to the Balkans before 5500 BCE are likely to have been mildly-to-radically different than what a modern map suggests. Not just the Bosphorus land bridge, but also the ability to walk along the shelf of the now-inundated Med coast.
 
There are also some interesting questions to ask about the Hellespont and (then) Gulf of Marmora at this time. Presently, there is a strong surface current flowing from the Black to the Med, with a yet stronger deeper current beneath flowing into the Black from the Med. This waterway may have been rather sluggish, brackish, with a less intense current, and likely, more protected from storms and the vaguries of the winds. In other words, considerably more navigable that at present, and navigable with a considerably less sophisticated
boat.  The opening of the Bosphorus may have not merely sundered the land bridge, but may have, for a time, very substantially restricted cross-Hellespont navigation, bringing into being a long-term barrier to easy cross-cultural, cross-linguistic, one that exists even today. Once the Bosphorus was open, it was easier to travel from Bulgaria to NW Turkey than the other way round -- the evidence from the Ezero culture (3200 BCE and down) says this part of Turkey got its major cultural (and probably, linguistic) load in just this way.
 
The issue of how agriculture entered the Balkans MUST be reassessed in light of the Black Sea event. It is clear agriculture was practiced at the old lakeshore, especially in the annual exposure of new lake-bottom muck as the Euxine Lake slowly drew down. Agriculture probably went via Hungary into the Danube basin first. It took 2 years for the Black Sea to fill, and in most places, the rise was never more than inches in a day: there would have been agriculture-practicing refugees.
 
I think you have Semitic too far north too early. I think you may have spray-painted "Indo-Tyrrhenian dialects" too far west too.
 
As regards Uralic-Yukaghir (as well as Altaic), these langauges spread (and survived) in less-desirable, almost unpopulated areas. It was not until the invention of wheeled-vehicles and horse-riding that you see anything more than hunter-gatherers on the Steppe, further east in Mongolia, North China and places east of that. You would have had EXTREMELY small groups, of the size where radical linguistic innovation can spread very quickly (with larger groups, linguistic conservatism is stronger). Until rather late times when populations greatly increased consequent to the arrival of horse riding, carts, and other technological innovations, I wonder if extreme linguistic innovation was the norm across the Steppe and Northern Asia. As a suggestion, this suggests Altaic, Uralic, and Indo-European each underwent a period of extreme innovation, and only later, with the conservativism of later increased populations, did innovation slow down to what is experienced in historical times.
 
Mark.
 

From: Glen Gordon
 
Okay, hopefully this will get people thinking and talking. I have new pages up on my site:

http://glen-gordon.tripod.com/language.html

One page is about language origins and has the long-range
linguistic tree that I suggested earlier. Another link has been made to a map of the Black Sea area around 6000 BCE with the position of the languages as I calls 'em.
Note, I'm suggesting that NEC may be the old "cultural link" to the north shores of the Black and IE would be the motive for the "reversal" of this direction of influence at this period of time.

But I'm not sure now at what time Semitic was in contact with Kartvelian
(perhaps later) so the southern Black shores may have been covered with
another language. Anyone know anything about Kaskian?