Re: [cybalist] Dating Zarathushtra and the Rig Veda

From: Mark Odegard
Message: 2164
Date: 2000-04-22

Dennis writes:

But, doesn't this argue for an earlier dating for Zarathustra, even if the texts are later. Didn't I read in one of the postings that the language of the Gathas was more similar to Indic?
 

 
This seems to be an unresolved question. My reading suggests a very deep date for Zarathustra.
 
Some reference to the bible might be in order. We have Daniel, who is putatively writing a book during the Babylonian exile, but all responsible exegetes say these stories are Hasmonean in date. Similarly, we have First, Second and Third Isaiah; the first would seem to contain authentic pre-Babylonian material, while the second would seem to be Babylonian and immediately post-Babylonian interpolations; the third is the poet.
 
History writing, in the modern sense, did not exist until Herodotus. Before Herodotus you don't so much have history as you have events projected back or forward in time, as suits the mythic need, with a great deal of editing involved. The authors of such books are not writing history in the modern sense of the term.
 
Zarathushtra might not be particularly historical. C.f. the historical Jesus vs. the Jesus as interpreted/created by the Church.
 
The bible and Christianity/Judaism have been subjected to more forms of searching analysis than just about any other academic topic there is. The Avestan religion has not been subjected to this searching analysis and consequently many interesting questions remain not merely unresolved, but ultimately not even asked.
 
Zarathrustra may be a creature of the Avestan religion, and not of history. Whatever the case, however, it is clear that the Iranians completely displaced the Indics in the South Caucusus and Persia -- in fact, everywhere except India. The Iranians encountered the Indic religion -- which seems to have been remarkably similar to their own. As a matter of ethnic pride and social superiority, it seems they differentiated themselves from the Indics they were displacing via religion -- and were quite successful. Maybe it was the Sassanids who did this, perhaps an earlier group.
 
The question is not religion but caste. The elite Iranians needed to differentiate themselves from the 'pagan' Indics. If they did, they succeeded wonderfully. The later conversion to Islam, and the aftermath, would likely have extirpated whatever remains of ancient Indic paganism which might have persisted into the 700-800s CE.
 
Think of the ancient Christian apologetics, where the position of the 'heretics' is recoverable only though the writings of those who wrote against them. Would we know of the Cathari without the polemics? Would the surviving post AD 1, post AD 700s Indic-religionists of Iran have left records recoverable to us consequent to the Sassanids and then later to the soldiers of Islam?
 
The idea of 'sacred scriptures' seems to have first occurred sometime after 700, progressing as time progressed. We get the Avesta, the first redaction of the Hebrew scriptures -- and even Confucius in China. In Greece, we witness the canonization of Homer and Hesiod as the basic books of the Olympian Religion.
 
Whatever the Avesta is, it is not unreasonable to assume Zarathushtra is the back-projected author, the religous author, the religious founder, the Moses of Zoroastrianism, the Homer of Olympianism. Zarathustra is probably historical, but he is also mythic. We have to treat him as do Jesus and Moses and Homer.