Thanks Dennis for your post
> I was of the impression that Zarathustra was considerably older
than
670BCE.
> Anyway I found the following at http://www.avesta.org/
>
> When did Zarathushtra live?
> According to Bruce Lincoln,
>
> "At present, the majority opinion among scholars probably inclines
toward
> the end of the second millennium or the beginning of the first,
although
> there are still those who hold for a date in the seventh century."
(Death,
> War, and Sacrifice, 1991, pg 150)
> Humbach and Ichaporia seem to favor the Xanthos date of 1080 BC but
mention
> the 630 date also. (Heritage, 1994, pg 11).
The later dating that I prefer comes from ZAEHNER, R. C.: The Dawn
and
Twilight of Zoroastrianism ; G. P Putnam's Sons, N.Y. 1961, First
edition; with illustrations; divided into two parts: of Zoroastrian
greatness in its homeland, Iran - the period of the Achaemenian
Empire of Cyrus, Darius, and Xerxes and that of the lesser known but
more enduring Expire of Sassanians (226-652AD)
Zaehner goes through a great deal of internal evidence in the Gathas
which shows that Zarathustra lived at the age of incipient state
formation in Eastern Iran - a period roughly contemporaneous with the
creation of the Median Empire in Western Iran.
As for the earlier dates I feel these are Achaemenid attempts to give
themselves an august and ancient lineage similar to the Babylonians
and the Egyptians, who could literally trace back a history across
thousands of years. Jews, Romans, Greeks, Persians and others were
all busy trying to do the same. I suspect that the dates before
1,000
BCE are all suspect for this reason, given that the Avestan corpus,
as
Piotr has shown us was only collected into the Avesta in Sassanid
times (after Christ!)
There is, it seems, a number of attempts around to try to give myth
historiic standing, as a way as we move into the 21st century of
establishing various kinds of "fundamentalism". Hindu Fundamentalism
asserts the historical truth of the Ramayana and the Mahabharata.
Christian fundamentalism asserts the literal truth of the Flood and a
7 day creation. There is even a Zoroastrian fundamentalism.
Have a look at
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~zarathus/zgen33.html
> A commonly given date is the seventh century B.C.E. I think Boyce
has
> convincingly shown the seventh century date to be an error. Humbach
also
> discounts the basis of this calculation in his Gathas 1991 (pg 30).
Boyce
> has wavered on an actual date: between 1400 and 1000 BC (1975),
between 1700
> and 1500 (1979), around 1400 BC (1988), between 1500 BC & 1200 BC
"with the
> latter more likely" (1992).
Dennis, I have enormous trouble accepting such early dates.
It is interesting to look at the original source of the Zoroastrian
Vendidad
Zarathushtra asked Ahura Mazda:
"O Ahura Mazda, righteous Creator of the corporeal world, who was the
first person to whom You taught these
teachings?
Then spoke Ahura Mazda:
"YIMA the splendid who watched over his subjects, O righteous
Zarathushtra. I first did teach the Aryan religion to
him, prior to you.
"Yima spoke to me, and said he would like to spread the religion
among
mankind by teaching others. It was then that I
replied:
"O Yima you are not created for this task by Me. You are not learned
enough to increase the religion among mankind -
you are not the Messenger of the religion.
"Yima the righteous told me then:
"O Ahura, if I am not created for the task of increasing the good
religion, then I would like to advance the world, to
increase it and be a righteous king and protector. I ask You this,
that in my kingdom there be neither cold wind nor hot
wind (neither extreme winter or summer), there be no sickness nor
death. That my subjects be undying and unwanting,
and gloriously happy under my reign.
"I Who am Ahura Mazda, was pleased with this. I brought Yima a weapon
- a Golden plough which was dagger shaped
with golden forks, to signify that his authority was divine,
sanctioned by Me. He became the mightiest King
(KSHAETA) the Aryans had ever known, the most righteous and most
splendid Aryan man.
"When Yima's rule extended to 300 years, then the Aryan land had
prospered so much that the land became full of
cattle, men, dogs, birds and red flaming fire (the fires kept burning
in the house of every Aryan). Place could no longer
be found for cattle or men.
"I made this known to Yima, and he proceeded towards the south,
towards the path of the high sun (west), increasing
the land with his golden plough (conquering and cultivating the
lands). The boundaries of the Aryan kingdom were
thus extended in breadth, one third greater than before. The king
stood as an Aryan on the mother earth, praising the
country with words fit for prayer.
"When Yima's rule extended to 600 years, the state of abundance
reoccurred. This led to Yima proceeding again
towards the south and the west, extending the boundaries of the Aryan
kingdom two thirds greater than before. Thus
happened the second great migration of the Aryans.
"When Yima's rule extended to 900 years, abundance again led to Yima
increasing the land with his golden plough,
towards the south and west. This third great migration made the Aryan
kingdom three times larger than before.
"In the first 1000 years of his rule, Yima the splendid enjoined
righteous order on his Aryan subjects. He controlled
invisible time itself, making it so much large in size so as to
praise
and spread the righteous law.
"That glorious age of the Aryans did not last for ever, O
Zarathushtra! It was time for the evil one's attack. I Who am
Ahura Mazda spoke then to Yima Kshaeta:
"O splendid Yima, towards the sacred Aryan land will rush evil as a
severe fatal winter; evil will rush as thick snow
flakes falling in increased depth. From the three directions will
wild
and ferocious animals attack, arriving from the
most dreadful sites.
"Before this winter, any snow that fell would melt and convey the
water away. Now the snow will not melt (but will
form the Polar ice cap). In this place, O Yima the corporeal world
will be DAMAGED. Before in this seedland the grass
was so soft the footprint of even a small animal could be observed.
Now, there will be no footprints discernible at all
on the packed sheets of hard ice that will form.
"So, Yima; make a mighty VARA, an enclosure as long as a riding
ground, with equal four sides. Here bring the
families of Aryan men and women, cattle, dogs, birds and the red
flaming fire.
"Inside the Vara, make water flow in a canal, one Hathra long. Keep
earth inside the Vara, to grow green vegetables
as food. Make cattle pens, to house the cattle of the Aryan people.
"Let love blossom unfailing in the enclosure, among the young couples
therein - make for them a residence, with
rooms, pillars, long extended walls and an enclosing wall."
It is interesting what this shows about Indo-Europeans in Iran.
Firstly Irano-Aryans are believed to have come from the North, and to
have been forced to move south by excessively cold winters. This
fits
well into the late Bronze Age climatic crisis of 1,200 BCE. The move
to the south is associated with escaping a disaster.
Secondly Yima Kaesheta is the same as the Hindu Yama Raj, king of the
Underworld. He also appears in the Elder Eddas (are Edda's, Veda,
and
Vendadid I.E. Cognates) as the Jotun (giant) Ymir out of whose body
the world was created. The story here contains some connection back
to the PIE Urheimat.
Thirdly Ahura is the same as the Hindu Asura, and the Germanic Asir.
Again this suggests an I.E. cognate going back to the Pontic Steppe.
Another kite flying
John