Re: Macro-Pelasgia

Rex, thanks for your posts to Dennis. It would seem we are arriving at
some kind of consensus here in the vexed question of the pre-Hellic
realm (Macro-Pelasgia)

> Responding to Dennis Poulter in:"Pelasgians, Tyrrenians and now

Trojans"

>
> >It appears that Troy was never the name of the city,

You wrote

> Trying to sort Troy names out will lead to insanity :-). The area of
> Troy was inside an area (The Troad) with strategic and marketing

value to

> all interested in Black Sea trade (Mark Odegard can provide more

there, I've

> seen his thinking on the point on ane list.) Tyrrhen
> (noi/ia/ians) has been more obstacle to my thinking than anything

else.

I like Piotr's point of Tarusha-Troasja-Tyrsenoi-Tyrrhenoi-Etrusca as
different names for the same area/same people. Whether they spoke the
same language over the full transition is another matter. Thus we find
Prydein (Pictish), became Celtic Pretani, Britain of the Romans, and
the Brittish Isles for the Germanic English. Four languages - one
name. Thus we must be wary of identifying the Tarusha-Troasja-Tyrsenoi
-Tyrrhenoi-Etruscans as one (linguistic) people (even though quite
possibly they were!)

Rex again

> If I am right, that would correspond to the Pelasgic arrival and

domination

> at the Aegean point..as well as EBA in Poliochni (Lemnos). All I have
> maintained so far is "from the north"..which was deliberately to avoid
> selecting from: West of the Black sea and East of the Black sea: as a

single

> route (or a double one)..don't have enough arch data to make those
> determinations yet.
>
> >>By the time of Ilias' destruction around 2250BCE, there were large
> >amounts of gold, silver, bronze and copper and enormous >monumental
> buildings and gateways through the massive walls etc. >etc. The

question

> that comes now is, where did all this gold, >silver, copper and tin

come

> from? I think, given the orientation of >Ilias at this time

(characterised

> at Troia Maritima), that it is more >likely to be the Balkans than the
> interior of
> >Anatolia or the >Caucasus.

The Thracian area 3,500 - 3,000 BCE was occupied by the Boian A
culture, with the neighbouring Vinca peoples, part of Gambutas' Old
Europe. Not much evidence of Kuban (Indo-Etruscan) incursians here,
but plenty of evidence of movements out of "Old" Anatolia.

> That could correspond to a northern intrusion..deleting Pelasgic

control of

> northern trade from the Troad advantage point.
> Of course: trade with the north via the Black Sea.
>
> >Do you have any idea of who were the people of the Danubian >Bronze
> cultures of this period? Could they have been Trojans?
>
> This can get in to the layered "Name Game" again. Could they have

been

> Trojans? yes. Could they have also moved into an already existing

Troad by

> name? yes. Moesia (South bank Danubian) could have been the source

of the

> name Mysia..and could have contributed to the Eastern "Muski".

Danubians

> certainly came: can't sort out chronologies from here: Bithynia was

defined

> by warlike Danubians well before mid 2nd Millennium. Phyrges...and

the

> groups who would create "Hittite' over next to (or on top of) Pala and
> Hattics. I think in the Troad you have a northern new domination of

an older

> established area..in My View: Danubian taking from Pelasgic. East

Danubian

> major (Thracian) groups include the Moesi, Getae, Daci, Costoboc,

and

> KarpiDaci. Do all of them extend back to 3,300 BCE; the current date

of IE

> and BA dominance of the eastern Danube? I don't know. Daci are known

to have

> traded with Myceneans..via arch evidence in the form of distinct

Mycenean

> swords. I think the proto-group for all these tribal groups came from

the

> initial IE intrusion of the Eastern Danube. Largest impact on NW

Anatolia

> since EBA: Moesi. Moesi alone? No.

Moesia-Mysia-Mushki I see as a movement of Thraco-Phrygian, not as a
movement of Trojan-Tyrsenoi.

> >Following the destruction of 2250BCE, possibly by incoming
>Anatolians, the
> site was reduced to relative poverty. Houses are >smaller and

communal,

> metal becomes very scarce, and there is an >increase in animal bones
> (hunting for food perhaps), deer at first, >later pigs and cows. This

phase

> (Troy III, IV and V) lasted until about >1900BCE, and although there

seems

> to be a slight improvement in >living standards, it remains

relatively poor,

> especially in metals. >This phase also has been characterised as
> "Anatolian".
>
> All Pelasgi were not rich sea traders..those in the interior were poor
> farmers. Pre-Pelasgians were also getting displaced in some regions,

and

> still around in many. Nor have I ever claimed all people in the geo

area

> were all Pelasgi.

We should also be careful that assuming the arrival of a new
ethno-linguistic element in pre-modern times completely replaces the
previous ones. Pelasgians survived until 4th century classical Greece,
in Hellas. Anatolian Luwian-Lydian aristocrats may have ruled
Pelasgian Trusja-Tyrsenoi peasants. There would have been
intermarriage both ways. There were Wealh (Britons i.e. Welsh
speakers) in Wessex down to the reign of Alfred if not beyond, and the
Northumbrians were thoroughly intermarried (and the aristocracy was
bilingual in English and Welsh, down to Edwin and Oswald). The Hittites
were bilingual in Neshite-Hittite and Khattic for religious purposes
during their Old Kingdom. It is quite likely that similar situations
occurred here in western Anatolia too.

> >About 1900BCE Troy V was demolished and Troy VI was built. This
>seems to
> coincide with a general wave of destruction right across >Anatolia.

James

> Mellaart has ascribed the cultural change in Troy VI >and the

introduction

> of horses and grey "Minyan" ware with the >arrival of the Luwians,

who also

> took their ceramic style on into >Greece. These Luwians are seen as

the

> precursors of the Greeks >into Greece, mainly on the grounds of

place-name

> elements. From >this point, we come to my earlier posting on Hyksos

etc.

>
> Reading John's previous and my response: you will understand why I

think

> Luwian, as well as Lycian, Lydian, et-al..are regional sub-identities

with

> varying levels of Pelasgic Influence.
>
> >Summary:
> >Do you have evidence for your assertions of EBA penetrations into
>the
> western Mediterranean in the 3rd millennium? I haven't found >any

reference

> to this.
>
> Whoa..stop!:-) Don't know where I gave you that impression. I have

been

> careful to limit early dating. I use c3000 BCE for the Aegean

threshold of

> advance of my theoretical wave. Taking that only from the Poliochni

EBA

> layer. Then into Greece to displace the Tyrrhenoi..then expanding
> influence..very carefully undated..last phase of described influence

into

> colonies including Italy . The intended assertion was that the former
> Tyrrhenian coast was already an established "Aegean place" well

before the

> post 800 BCE arrival of the Etruscans. Otherwise, I indicated a

much more

> ancient use of Tuscan than can be Etruscan derived..but that first

reference

> is Troy associated..which carries only a hint of Greek intrusion.

There are

> many arch sites including early greek levels in Italy..ID'd as

intrusive..a

> review of all should yield a good c.date. Don't have access to that

data. I

> am suggesting that colonization was begun..then interrupted in the

Greek

> decline post c1200 BCE..then resumed in the resurgence..including the
> Etruscans.

One wave of Late Bronze Age intrusian into the Western Mediterranean
that we should take into account is that of the Shardana-Sardinian. As
an important element of the Peoples of the Sea, they have been linked
with Sardis (the Lydian capital), and with the post 1,200 BCE
appearance of the Nuraghe culture of Sardinia. These people appeared
as horned warrior aristocracy, ruling over a much earlier (probably
Vasco-Caucasian) peasantry. Carvallo-Sforza's genetic studies suggests
that Sardinia was settled as early as 9,000 BCE by late ice-age hunters
and has, despite their modern Italian tongue, and being colonised by
Shardana, Etruscans, Carthaginians and Romans at different periods, not
lost their genetic distinctiveness. Genetically they are closer to the
Ice Age than are the Basques!

> >Otherwise, why would the Achaeans mount a massive expedition
>against Troy,
>
> To unblock sea trade into the Black Sea.
>
> >1300, when their own cities must have been coming under pressure
>from the
> Dorians?

Professor Finlay, the Cambridge Classicist gives fairly convincing
evidence that shows the "Dorian Invasion" did not bring down the
Mycenaeans, and probably occurred as late as 1,000 BCE.

Rex

> All data I have suggest the Dorians were a sudden event as late as

1100BCE

Thus you can add another century to your figures here Rex. The Dorians
probably started in Thessaly (the early destruction of Iolcos) moving
to Dodona. There they remained until being expelled by Epirite
Illyrians in about 1,000 BCE, crossing the Gulf of Corinth and settling
in the Peloponesse after that. They thus were part of the post
Mycenaean dark age movements across the Aegean to Crete, Rhodes and
south western Anatolia circa 900-800 BCE.

> Hints of an already old Aegean influence in the Classics, suspicions

about

> the Raetii being older than the Etruscan settlement, Strabo on

Pompeii and

> Herculaneum,

Thanks for the (Princeton Encyclopedia of Classical Sites) references.
They are very useful.

Dennis asked

> >Oscans?

Rex replied

> Definitely neolithics, may have founded the original Pompeii

settlement, and

> may have been last identifiable as "Campanians", simply meaning the

last

> place they were still evident, and certainly speaking IE by that time
> ..Strabo puts them under Plasgi then Tyrrhenian layers in both Italy

and

> Greece.

Hmm. They still may have been Italics. Impossible at this time to
say, definitively one way or the other. Too much rope here with which
to hang ourselves.

> >So, nothing in the posts or my rummaging around, has changed my
>opinion
> that the Pelasgians were the original proto-Greeks and >nothing more.

Rex when you say Proto-Greeks are you referring ethnically (eg. the
Helladic I,II and III cultures), or linguistically. I would agree with
the former, but not with the latter.

> At least we agree they were the proto Greeks. How did they get there?

As

> for something more, I think John's detailed post and my additions in

the

> response do something there. But also consider:
>
> (Princeton Encyclopedia of Classical Sites) buruncuk
> Ruins at 28 km N of Izmir. These ruins are usually identified with

Larisa

> (Anatolia), a very old city, the principal place in the region before

the

> coming of the Aiolian Greeks. Of the various cities of the name, this

is

> perhaps the one referred to by Homer as fertile Larisa, home of

warlike

> Pelasgians....
>
> (Princeton Encyclopedia of Classical Sites) Kyme
> City in Aiolis, 40 km N of Smyrna. Founded, according to Strabo

(621), by

> Greek colonists after the Trojan War and after their capture of Larisa
> (Anatolia) from the Pelasgians.
>
> (Princeton Encyclopedia of Classical Sites) pityoussa
> So called in ancient times because of its abundant pines, it is an

island in

> the Aegean separated from the W coast of Turkey by a strait 8 km

wide. Its

> earliest inhabitants included the Pelasgi, Lydians and Carians.

Thanks for these too.

So in conclusion I think we have the following

1. A Khattic-Hurro-U Caucasian substratum people, who travelled across
Anatolia introducing farming to the southern Aegean, Crete and Greece
circa 7,000 BCE. Prepottery people may have spread this culture
through the Balkans (Starcevo) and across the Mediterranean (Cardial)
(both impressed pottery cultures).

2. A Pelasgian-Tyrsenoi aristocracy, travelling from the Pontic,
through the Caucasas, Paphloginia and settling NE Anatolia. Moving
across the Dardanelles and into Lemnos, Imbros, and the north Aegean
circa 3,000 BCE, possibly as far as Macedonia. They establish Early
Macedonian I, II and III.

3. An IE movement circa 2250 BCE from the Pontic Steppes via Usatova
and related burnings, across the Dardanelles, driving people from group
1 across the Cyclades into southern Greece (related cultures). The
Shift from Early Helladic I to II. This introduced Anatolian cultures
into the area (but Crete was avoided, shifting smothly from Early to
Middle Minoan). Bell Beaker cultures throughout Western Europe (inc
Italy)

4. The 2000BCE expansion of the Thraco-Cimmerian cultures drives
Achaean Greeks into Thessaly (circa 1950 BCE) establishing themselves
at Dimini. Expansion of Illyrian IE cultures into Italy as the
Terramare Venetic peoples.

5. The 1900 BCE establishment of the Neshite-Hittite monarchy, and
expansion westwards, drives Pelasgians across the Aegean into Thessaly,
Attica and the Argos. From Thessaly the Hellenes spread southwards at
the same time through Boetia, Attica, the Argolid and Achaea. The
Persids rule Mycenae from 1600 BCE. They open the Black Sea route to
the Caucasian Kolchis (Argonauts).

6. After Thera, 1450, Minoans taken over by Achaeans from the Mainland
(Theseus). The 1400BCE expansion of the Hittite New Empire over the
Arzawan (Luwian-Tyrsenian) kingdom drives the house of Pelops into the
Pelopponesse. They adopt Greek and come to rule in Mycenae and Sparta
(as the house of Atreus).

7. Urnfield cultural expansion takes the Villanovan Italics into Italy
(separation of Celto-Italic family). The 1300BCE the
Moesia-Mysian-Mushkian move across the Dardanelles, destruction of Troy
VI, and a Phrygian dynasty established amongst refugees of the Wilusan
Easrthquake in the Troad. Trojan/Tyrsenoi (Paris/Alexander) seek help
from their Pelopid (Menaleus) relatives.

8. Mycenaean attempt to open the Black Sea route that had been closed.
Trojan refugees allowed back to Illios/Wilusa. The Trojan War.

9. Circa 1180 BCE Collapse of Mycenaean and Hittite worlds.
Pelasgian/Peleset in Palestine. Phrygians, Mushki and Kaska destroy
Hittite capital. NeoHittite states with a strong Pelasgian element in
Cilicia. (Stories of Pelasgian Mopsus of Colophon, built into
NeoHittite and Phoenician genealogies).

10. Dorians invade Pelopponessus circa 1000 BCE after having been
expelled from Dodona by Epirite Illyrians. Illyrians (Terramare
remnants reinfoced by Mesapics from across the Adriatic) settle
Apaulia, pushing the Brutii and Sikels across the straits of Messina
into Sicily.

11. Colonisation by Greeks, Thessalians to Aeolia, Ionians to Ionia and
Dorians to Miletus circa 900-800 BCE. Settlements in Magna Graecia.

12. Movements of Pelasgian/Tyrrhenoi from Lemnos and Lydia to Tuscany
circa 850 BCE.

Well folks - do we now have consensus or not?

Regards

John