Re: A SinoTibetan-Vasconic Comparison: A very, very, very, very len

>
> Guillaume:
> >Well, analogy took place AFTER it was borrowed.
>
> You are irrationally using _two_ assumptions where one will do. I win

by

> that rule by the guy with the Rasor.

You are also making two assumptions : that these numerals are
genetically related + your analogy hypothesis.

>
>
> I'd rather argue that anything with AC /slh-/ so far has nothing to

do with

> the connections I propose. We will keep with /lh-/ in /lha?/ from an

earlier

> ST *sl-.

But then where does AC sl- come from ?

>
> Allophonic variation of said phonemes? It would be best to provide

examples

> since I don't know of these things. I only provide other possible
> intrepretations for what you're throwing at me.

Ok, but first find a copy of Karlgren's grammata serica and learn
chinese characters, unless it is difficult to explain (especially on
the internet; of course, if you were in paris, we could prendre un café
and explain you clearly old chinese reconstruction, but I need to show
you chinese characters). Or give me your postal address, I will send
you a letter explaining those things.

>
> >Finally, how come words in -j and -n rhyme with each other only in
>the
> >oldest parts of the Book of Odes (sywijX < b/lhur? rimes with -n >in

ode

> >183, which was composed roughly in the 8-7th century), and >never in

the

> >younger parts ? It suggests the change -l > -j /-n (dialectal

isogloss, and

> >then dialect mixture) occurred in
> >the 6th century BC.
>
> Huh? Where is the original -l in your example then? What is /lhur?/?

Water?

> Looks like "shui". If so, I thought you said /-j?/. Are you playing

with me?

> Anyways, all I see is /-r?/ which is quite different for many reasons

from

> an -n.

b/lhuj? < b/lhur? (I am not playing with you, don't worry, I write only
things that I believe in)
the words in -n also ended in -l or in -l in older parts of the
Shijing. We have here a case of dialect mixture. The normal change is
from -r to -n and -l to -j, but in some cases, -r changes to -j. This
latter change was characteristic of the speech of Qi (nowadays in
Shandong), but the ancestor of modern chinese dialects is a mixture of
Many dialects, although mainbly the Qin dialect.

>
>
> At any rate, I continue to bet my life that ST is not closely related

to AN

> at all.

Would you bet your life on Sino-Dene ?

>
> No, a whole numerical set is. Hold on to yer hats, mes petits

linguistes

> lesbiennes. The following NWC is mostly Starostin's except for

"three" (his

> *L:@) which I would reintrepret as *s^:@ based on the actual

attestation:

>
> SinoDene NWC Abkhaz Adyghe
> one *cyak *za z-n@ "once" z@
> three *sla:m *s^:@ x-pa s^@
> four *li *p@...@ - -
> five *-Nu *s-xW@ x-ba tf@

> six *Rawk *LWa f-ba ha
> eight *bRya:t *bL@ "7" bz^-ba bL@

How come the final consonnants are missing ? Sorry, I don't know much
of caucasian languages appart from georgian.

> nine *bgu *bGW@ [PAT *zW@, Ub. bR@]
> ten *bs?i *bc?W@ z^a-ba ps@
>
> The last two numbers are hard to deny especially. Sorry about the new

AC for "ten" is b/gip; it is phonetic in hexie2 "harmony", MC hep <
a/gip (the caracter is "ten" on the left, and 3 characters "force" on
the right)
It doesn't look myuch like your caucasian languages, doesn't it ?

> SinoDene reconstruction I propose - I know how this troubles you so.

You'll

> notice however that *R regularly becomes a lateral in NWC as it does

for

> *m-hutL > SinoDene *mRa:wk "eye" > *bla (Abkhaz a-la, Ubykh bLa) and

you'll

> also notice that finals like to disappear in NWC. What's more, some
> consonant clusters seem to show up as simplified tense phonemes in
> Starostin's reconstructions. We even have a minimal pair *-Nu "five"

and

> *bgu "nine" become *s-xW@ and *bGW@ respectively. The *R is uvular

but may

Wait a minute, what is the relationship between -N and s-x. Where does
this s- come from ?

> have become *r by the time of ST as you say.
>

> I would look things up in an Old Chinese dictionary if I had an Old

Chinese

> dictionary, but I need to move out of this impoverished city first

and find

> a real job with real money to buy real books from real sources (Can

you feel

> the bitter hatred I feel towards this bush town?). Once I do that

(hopefully

> this spring or summer), I will be amongst the "learned" world and

shoot your

> AN theory up with bigger bullets of cold, hard fact :P

OK, sorry Glen, I have to admit you are working in very poor
conditions. Why don't you come to France or Germany ? Education at the
university is almost free (1000 francs par an).

However, if your chinese / tibetan is so inaccurate, how accurate is
your NW caucasian data that I can't really check out ? If your data are
flawed, what value has your research ? I spend half of my time
double-checking my data, and I can still get mistaken. Please don't
tell me yoyu can't.

Guillaume