town and fence

----- Original Message -----
From: John Croft
To: cybalist@eGroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 6:47 AM
Subject: [cybalist] Re: Town and Fence

Mark, in reply to David's point >>One English word which has
interested me for some time is the English word
>>*town* which was derived from the Anglo-Saxon *tun* meaning
a settlement. >>This word is of course found in
thousands of English place-names such as >>Workington,
Darlington, Southampton etc. I believe that the word was
used in >>this context from a very early period of Anglo-Saxon
settlement in what is >>now England. What puzzles me
is that there does not seem to a corresponding >>usage in
north German,Dutch or Frisian place-names, indeed the word
appears >>to be relatedto the German *Zaun* which means a
fence. Did the term >>originally mean a fence rather than a
settlement and does it imply that the >>Anglo-Saxon settlers
surrounded their settlements with fences for defensive
>>purposes perhaps? Maybe it suggests a border or boundary
(between landowners >>?). Are there any related words in
other Germanic and indeed Indo-European >>languages and if so
are they ever used in the English sence of settlement.
Mark replied >On-line dictionary of postulated non-IE
substrate vocabulary in the Germanic >languages suggests
*dunum could be Celtic. It could also be part of the
>non-Indo-European substrate in Germanic. Approximately
one-third of the >ancient Germanic vocabulary is non-IE.
English and High German ('Standard >German') are relatively
distant from each other. English preserves some words >(some
IE, some non-IE) not otherwise found, even in Dutch,
Frisian, or other >Low German languages. > >The various words
for city and town frequently developed from terms for
>'enclosed place', 'fortress', 'fenced area'. Even family
farmsteads formed >some sort of enclosure, often linked with
fencing to keep-in or keep-out >animals. A town could be
nothing more than a few buildings forming a circle >around a
central open space. When you don't have a word for 'town',
using your >word for 'enclosure', 'fenced area', 'corral', etc.,
is an easy semantic >extension. The origins of tun in the
Celtic makes a great deal of sense when as John Morris has
shown by plotting locations of "ton" shows that these are
communities (eg the Thames Valley, Northumberland etc)
where a Saxon and a British Celtic population lived side by
side for a long period. Dun names too survived in Britain
(eg. London, Dundee etc). Another case of a "submerged"
substrate language in operation. It is interesting too the
linkage between the cases you quote Dave in the Workington,
Darlington etc. Ing comes from the Saxon = Ingas, which
was frequently used to devote a tribal affiliation. In the
Saxon settlement of Britain they were invited in as foederates, to
help reid Britain of troubles with Picts and Scots (i.e.
Irish). As such various groups were settled close to (but not in)
various Celtic "dunum" to which the tribal name eventually
succeeded the earlier British one. "Ham" is a term that is
widely found eg. Hampshire etc. has a different meaning which
escapes me at the moment. Hope this helps John


Ham is just the same as Mod E home, but with the vowel (OE
long a < *haimaz)
shortened due to lack of stress.

As Mark correctly points out, the same word has frequently
been used for 'village' and
'enclosure'. Another well-known example is gard (<*ghordhos),
whose meaning in
Germanic and Balto-Slavic ranges from 'yard, enclosure' to
'house, homestead' to
'town, castle' (cf. Latin hortus 'garden, park').

Note that if OE tu:n (Old Saxon & Old Norse tu:n, OHG zu:n
'fence') is a loanword to
be identified with *du:num, it must be a very old one, since
*tu:n shows the
operation of Grimm's Law.

Piotr



Piotr:
> As Mark correctly points out, the same word has frequently been
>used
>for 'village' and 'enclosure'. Another well-known example is >gard
>(<*ghordhos), whose meaning in Germanic and Balto-Slavic ranges >from
>'yard, enclosure' to 'house, homestead' to 'town, castle' (cf. >Latin
>hortus 'garden, park').

Cool, so piecing together these etymological tidbits might bring me
closer
to my ancestors. Thus *gelem ghordom. Of course! I'm a frozen
enclosure!
Thank Piotr. ;)

- gLeN

----- Original Message -----
From: David James
To: cybalist@eGroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 11:37 PM
Subject: [cybalist] Re: Odp: Town and Fence

David says:

Thank you for your intersting replies to my original
questions.
Piotr, you state that the Anglo-Saxon placename element *ham*
means
*home*,
it can also mean (rarely) a *water-meadow*, examples of which
are to be
found in the London suburbs, namely East and West Ham. This
placename
element is also found in Germany, for example the town of
Hamm, which
is situated near Dortmund, and, I'm speculating here, in
Hamburg. No
doubt I will be corrected if this second example is incorrect.


Yes, you're right. There's another "ham" in English
placenames; in fact, it's pretty frequent, especially as the first
element of
compounds. OE hamm (with a short a) means 'meadow, plot of
pasture'; ditto in Low German. I suppose your guess about
Hamburg is correct. Some English placenames are ambiguous,
e.g. Hampton may be OE *hamm-tu:n or *ha:m-tu:n
(with pre-cluster shortening in late Old English), not to
mention other possibilities.

I think hamm may be related to hemm 'border, edge' (= ModE
hem). My Collins English Dictionary (not very reliable) cites
Old Frisian hemme 'enclosed land'.

And talking of hams, another common placeneme element is OE
hamol 'scarred, uneven' (cf. Latin camur, Irish cam
'crooked'). For example, Hambleton Hill (in Nidderdale,
Yorkshire; 13 c. Hameldune) < *hamol-du:n 'scarred hill(side)'.

Piotr



Hello, my name is Morten Thoresen, I'm 45 years old and I'm norwegian.
This is my very first attemt to take part in an internet discussion
group, so forgive for beeing an amateur in all aspects. Sorry for my
english as well.

However, I would like to comment the above written.

The word "tun" is still used in norwegian language. It means the space
in the centre of a farm or a "gard". Gard/gård or bondegard/bondegård
are norwegian words for "farm". "Bonde" means "farmer.
"Gard" can also mean "fence". The word "gjerde" is the common word for
fence today, but "gard/skigard" is still in use in the districts. (A
"skigard" is a fence made without nails.)

In older days, as far as I know from the viking ages 793-1100 and up
till 19th century a "tun" very well could consist of several farms with
many families belonging to the very same "tun", meaning a "village".
There are still some norwegian villages and towns having this suffix in
the names, as Nestun, Fortun, Horten (of Hortun(?)), Tune + more in
Norway, and in Sweden I know of Sigtuna and Eskildstuna.
"tun" is by definition a limited area.

I think maybe you will also find tracks(I wish I had a better word) of
"tun" (as "town") in Holland, Frisien, Germany, maybe even in Poland
and Russia.

Holland/Frisien:

Leeuwarden
Drachten (could have been norse "Draketun")
Roden (could have been Rødtun (rød means red)

surfix "-den" and "-ten" = "-tun"?

Germany:

Norden (culd be Nordtun; a common farmname today meaning "North"-"tun")
Emden
Rahden
Verden
Drochtersen
Uetersen
Winsen (Could mean Vindtun = Windtown)

surfix "-den", "-sen" and probably "-ten" = "-tun"?

Poland:

Olsztyn (Cold mean Oldertun - "Oldtown)
Ketrzyn
Korscierzyna
Polczyna
Kwidzyn

surfix "-tyn", "-zyn", "-zyna"= "-tun"?

Russia:

Scucin
Volozyn

surfix "-cin" and "-zyn" = "-tun"?

The word "gard" also appers in old Norse:

"Myklegard" = Istanbul
"Gardarrike" = Jerusalem

The word "-ham" is very like the norwegian "-heim". Hampton as
mentioned above may therefore very well originally have been "Heimtun".
My anchestors had some influence in good old England between 8-900 and
1100 if I'm not wrong . By the way, many farms in Norway still carry
this name.

Piotr mentions "-Hamm" in connection with frisish "Hemme" as enclosed
land. Hemme compared to norwegian "hjemme or heime" meaning "at home"
or "heimen" meaning the home, the place or the land, culd support this.
(?)

Earlier someone raised the question what might happen to a language if
it was isolated/not influenced? Icelandic is a good example. The
language, as far as I know, is practically unchanged over the last
thousand years. They today speak norwegian as we did it one tousand
years ago. Interesting?

What I've written here is my perception as a result of what I see and
think. I'm only an amateur. Hope this was not totally out of line.

Morten