Thank you Dennis for your interesting points.
> > There are lots of tales of immortals becoming mortal. Even Zeus
> > Zagreus was a dying God. Even Eve seems to have started her life
as a
> > title of the Sumerian Supreme Goddess Ninhursag (Ninti = Lady of the
> > rib), before she became the human "Mother of all Living" (Hawwah)
>
> Fine. Egyptian religion also allows for the deaths of gods, which has
been
> accounted as one reason why it was so easily superseded by
Christianity.
Dying and resurrecting Gods seem built in to the origins of Middle
Eastern Agriculture. The Inanna-Damuzi cycle seems the origin of them
all. As Inanna is a non-sumerian name, this mythos probably spread
with the Ubaid culture if not earlier. David Rohl has suggested that
the connections with the so-called Dynastic Race (Gerzian Naqada III)
which introduced Mesopotamian elements into Egypt (eg, cylendar seals,
faceted facades etc) seems to have introduced Auset (the Egyptian Isis)
as a cognate with Ashtarte-Ishtar.
The presence of the dying and resurrecting Gods in Anatolia (Attis,
Adonis etc) also show a Middle Eastern connection, which personally I
find is much more influential in the Aegean than your Egyptian Greek
one, here Dennis.
> > There are a number of Biblical - Aegean connections that seem to
derive
> > from the coming of the Peoples of the Sea. The chief Phillistine
> > divinity was Baal Zeboul (Lord of the Flies) and so the Gadfly
stinging
> > the Egyptian hiefer seems to be a cultural memory of events from the
> > reigns of Merenptah and Rameses III.
>
> Io, as daughter/sister of Kadmos, would seem to go back to the Bronze
Age.
> Michael Astour, Cyrus Gordon and others have written that texts from
the 2nd
> millennium found in Ugarit reveal a West Semitic mythology that in
many ways
> provides a bridge between Greece and Canaanite/Israelite mythology
(as far
> as it can be disentangled from Biblical rationalisation). So maybe the
> story, and other connections predate the Philistines.
I would be interested in the references here Dennis. I am aware of the
West Semetic connections at Ugarit, but I am not aware of the religious
connections between Ugarit and the Aegean (except that there was clear
Mycenaean evidence of a trading presence).
> > Hellenistic Syncretism recognised the essential unity of Olympian
and
> > all other polytheistic religions. Thus Celtic Lugh became Roman
> > Mercury became Greek Hermes even though they started as very
different
> > divinities. The association of Egyptian Neith, with Semetic Anath,
> > with Greek Athene when examined in detail just doesn't hold water.
> > Thoth and Hermes were not identical gods despite the fact that they
> > both had roles in communication as Gods of Language.
>
> I wrote that the essential unity of specifically Greek and Egyptian
religion
> was recognised from Ancient times (5th century BCE) .
This unity had essential political connections. Ionian mercenaries
were engaged by the Saite monarch Psammetichus (Herodotus 2.152-53)
Attrached by high wages and the promises of land on which to settle.
Dering the Saite 26th Dynasty Egypt became the place for Greek
mercenary soldiers to make a fortune. With this settler propulation a
Greco-Egyptian bi-culturalism grew up which sought parallels between
Athenian myths and Egyptian pantheon. This was strengthened Athenian
alliances with the Saite Dynasty 29 of Egypt - Nepherites and
Nectanebo, against the Persians, led to an attempt to pursuade the
Athenian polity that they had an older connection than existed in
reality. The connection of Athena and Neith of Sais came subsequent to
this anti-Persian revolt, which depended heavily on Greek mercenaries.
The Egyptians came to see the Athenians as valued allies, and there was
an attempt on both sides to see a union between the two titulary
divinities - Athena and Neith. It was from this period that the
syncretic tendencies came, not from the Bronze Age.
> I'm not sure whether you intended the pun, since Neit and Athene's
essential
> function was the holding and controlling of water, hence the enmity
with
> Seth in Egypt and Poseidon in Greece who represented the untamed
forces of
> nature. Athene (I exclude Anath because I know nothing about her) and
Neit
> were not just associated. Athene is Neit. Neit's city in Egypt was
Sais,
> whose religious title was Ht Nt "the Temple or House of Neit". This
would
> give in Greek Ath-(a)Neit. The full Homeric name for Athens is
Athenaie.
> There is also the statement of by one Charax of Pergamon in 2nd
century AD
> that "the Saitians called their city Athenai".
This Greek syncretism was fairly thorough going, Athena of Sais
appeared on nome coinage of Roman times.
> Iconographically too, since
> pre-Dynastic times Neit had been represented as a cockroach on a
stick,
> which developed into a figure 8 shield. There is a limestone plaque
from
> Mycenae showing the arms and legs of a goddess coming out from behind
a
> figure 8 shield, This image has been seen as an early representation
of the
> Palladion, the standing suit of armour associated with Pallas Athene.
> Of course, this may all be coincidence.
I think there is a connection (but feel it to have been coincidental)
between the shield and mace of Neith (not the cockroach on a stick) and
the shield of Athena's iconography that comes from a very different
source. Neith as controller of water is also news to me, from my
understanding of the Egyptian Ennead, the controller of waters was
Hapi, as God of the Nile. Ptah too had a role. Neith, from early
times was a war Goddess (perhaps another Anthenian connection), not a
water divinity.
The connection between Seth and Poseidon I think is unlikely.
Mycenaeans knew Poseidon as Poseidas - consort of Potnia - the Goddess.
Potnia Athenai seems to have been one of the titles of this important
Mycenaian divinity, so the rivalry between Poseidon and Athena
underlies the break away of the attempt to show their divinity was a
virgin Goddess, drawing her authority from Zeus alone, and in no way
linked with the older male God. In Egypt the rivalry was not between
Seth and Neith, but between Seth and Isis. Poseidon, as "the Shaker"
was God of Earthquakes, not the Lord of Chaos. The Greeks had Chaos as
the ground state from which Cosmos evolved, and there was no connecion
here with Poseidon. Seth, as the epitome of Chaos only achieved that
state with the recognition of Osiris as Lord of Order. From the
Egyptian point of view, this was a 12th dynasty recreation of a much
older struggle between Horus and Set (dynasty 2), recast by making
Osiris into the father of Horus, which seems to have occurred only
after the 1st Interregnal Period. Osiris in the Old Kingdom was almost
not mentioned, his popularity grew as a consequence of the political
and social disruption following the reign of Pepi II.
> > To posit an Eyptian origin of Greek myths does a diservice to
reality
> > because
> >
> > 1. How did the myths get from Eygpt to Greece when any Egyptian
> > missionaries from Menes down to Ptolemaic times showed a cultural
fear
> > of "The Great Green" and left voyages out of the sight of land to
> > others (Minoans, Mycenaeans and Phoenicians).
> >
>
> What? I have great difficulty in believing what I read here.
Nevertheless,
> I quote from Cambridge Ancient History, 3rd Edition, William Hayes
> concerning the
> reign of Tuthmosis III (early 15th century BCE) :
> "....are now generally conceded to have been ships designed and built
by
> Egyptians for journeys to Byblos and Crete or journeys of similar
type and
> duration. Furthermore, it is evident that in ship design and
construction
> and in seafaring knowledge in general the Egyptians of the New
Kingdom owed
> little or nothing to their Minoan and Phoenician neighbours, but
were, in
> fact, the originators of at least one type of ship adopted and used
by the
> latter."
> Note that this is a "concession". You are obviously not alone in
believing
> this utter nonsense. But facts do sometimes get in the way of reality,
> n'est-ce pas?
> By the way, what impact does this have on another myth, that of the
> Minoan/Mycenean thalassocracy?
Egyptian shipbuilding I always understood was rudimentary by comparison
to that of the Aegean and the Levant. Egyptian shortage of timber
always meant that boat building was derivative. Egyptian boat building
also was intended for navigating the Nile, not for ocean going voyages,
so I find Hayes's points in the CAH intriguing at the least. As for
Egyptian domination of the Eastern Mediterranean under Thurtmose III,
it was a land based, military domination, not the water based maritime
domination you propose. For example the Djehuty papyrus at the
Brittish museum tells how in trying to capture the city of Joppa,
Thutmoses' direct assaults failed, because the city was provisioned
from the sea. Djehuty only managed by ruse, after a protracted seige,
by smuggling 200 armed men into the city in baskets proporting to be
booty captured by the Prince of Joppa. In fact, eventual Egyptian
presence on the sea came because of a strategic alliance with the
Minoan Keftiu, built by Ahmose as a counterweight to maritime
dependence upon the Levant. The Egyptian 18th dynasty, coming north
from Thebes, prior to that had no skills at all in maritime
shipbuilding. With the eclipse of the Minoans by the Mycenaeans, there
seems to be a smooth transition in portrayals of people from the Aegean
on tomb walls. The alliance with the Aegean peoples seems to have
lasted until late in the reign of Rameses II, but apart from trade
items, there seems to have been no religious or cultic transfer of any
significance during the late Bronze Age period. At least not until the
Volkerwanderungen of the Late Bronze Age collapse.
> > 2. What happened to the indigenous religions of the Minoans and
Greeks
> > as they adopted the Egyptian forms you propose.
>
> I don't know. What happened to Druidism or the Old English religion?
Druidism or the Old English religion's only were submerged because of
the presence of Christian missionaries, spreading Latin Christianity
throughout Britain. There is no evidence, at any period prior to Roman
times (with Serapis and Isis mystery religions) of a proselytising
trend within Egyptian religions. Are you proposing Egyptian priests
spreading Egyptian religion in Knossos and Mycenae? I know of no
evidence of such events.
> > 3. Movements into the Aegean region were from Anatolia and the
North,
> > not from the Semitic regions or the Egyptians. The Orientalising
trend
> > in the Aegean only happened after the Phoenicians introduced their
> > alphabet, not before. Earlier toimes the movements connecting the
> > Aegean with the middle east were all centrifugal, not centripedal.
It
> > was movements out of the region, not inwards.
>
> Why the exclusivity? Of course the earliest movements, of people,
> agricultural techniques and assuredly other influences, came from the
north
> and Anatolia. I'm talking here about cultural and economic and,
perhaps,
> political ties, particularly during the 2nd millennium. The Greeks
did not
> move into a vacuum. The eastern Mediterranean was a sophisticated,
> urbanised, literate and highly active economic entity, dominated, in
my view
> at least, by the already ancient civilisation of Egypt, with its
> dependencies in the Levantine trading cities.
> Are you then suggesting that these established, densely populated and
> successful states were influenced or even dominated by the relatively
small
> and poor
> Cretans and Myceneans? This seems to defy common-sense.
These established, desnely populated states were only dominated by the
Aegean peoples at the close of the Bronze Age period by the Peoples of
the Sea. LHIIIC pottery finds along the Levant Coast are pretty
ubiquitous, and even the Hebrews believed the Phillistines came from
Crete. Domination of the Coastal Route from Gaza north to the Tekrer
(From the Greek Teucrians - descendents of the brother of Ajax at Troy)
was pretty total.
> > So there is no mechanism whereby Egyptian mythic elements would
enter
> > the Aegean. Evans' hypothetical link between Menes and Minos, and
the
> > theory of Eyptian refugees from the unification settling in Crete
has
> > long been disproven.
>
> Is this Sir Arthur Evans? I agree. But a link between Minos and the
Egyptian
> god Min (equated with Greek Pan), or Rhadamanthys with Mntw, both
gods being
> associated with bull cults, now there is an avenue worth exploring.
An association? I feel it is just coincidence. It is like saying that
"men" in English is related to the Egyptian "Min"... It doesn't add up.
There is no evidence that Min of the Egyptians was ever worshipped
outside Egypt, at any period. As a god of war, associated with the
Amonite theogony of Thebes, I was not aware of any bull cult
association with Min. The chief Egyprian bull cult was of the Apis
bull, and that had little to do with Min, being a part of the Memphite
theology, not the Thebaid. To show links it is more important than to
show chance coincidences of certain words.
Cretan bull cults probably had more to do with the widespread worship
of the Bull as consort to a goddess in Anatolia, going right back to
Catal Huyuk, rather than with anything Egyptian.
> I am not for one moment suggesting exclusive one-way traffic from
Egypt to
> Greece. Cultural influences are elusive and often multi-sourced. But
I think
> the real disservice to reality is to refuse to even consider Egypt as
a
> major player in the concert of nations that made up the eastern
> Mediterranean during the Bronze Age.
Egypt was the superpower par excellence in the Eastern Mediterranean in
the Late Bronze Age, true. Its domination of the economy, via its
almost limitless gold paid an important part in the whole economy, and
no doubt a certain amount of cultural domination occurred as a result.
The horns of Hathor appeared on Levantine goddesses, and Sphinxes
appeared as an art motif throughout the region. Bury says for instance
of Cretian religious art "There is no clear evidence of contact with
the Near East or Egypt. Most of the gold may have come from Egypt, the
ivory from Syria, the lapsi lazuli from Afghanistan, but the vessels
made from these were probably made in Crete" by Cretan artisans using
Cretian motifs. Later the orientalising trends of the Greek Art only
came with the opening of Egypt to the Greeks under the Saite 26th
dynasty already mentioned above.
Hope this helps
John