Civilisation

----- Original Message -----

From: Gerry Reinhart-Waller

To: cybalist@egroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 5:11 PM

Subject: [cybalist] Re: [paleoanthropology] song of the forest in mtDNA

----- Original Message ----- From: Gerry Reinhart-Waller <waluk@...> To: <paleoanthropology@eGroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 3:38 AM Subject: [paleoanthropology] Re: song of the forest in mtDNA > Nah. When the Scythians buried their dead, they included lots of burial > goods including horses and elaborate costumes not to mention costumes > for the horses. And as we all know, the Scythians were nomads; the > antithesis of a civilization. > Gerry > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gerry: Here's the danger of thinking in antitheses. Nomadic : sedentary = uncivilised : civilised. The Scythians had NO CIVILISATION??? Who built Neapolis (Crimea) then? Piotr --------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Piotr, According to the ten criteria for a "civilization" as established by V. Gordon Childe, a nomadic tribe does not quality as a "civilization". This is no comment on whether the group was or was not civilized. And for the most part, these Scythians were noted for their nomadic behavior. As far as Neaoplis (Crimea), this site is familiar to me, is attributed to one of the Scythian groups, and is referenced as a Scythian kingdom. But because of it's close proximity to Greek colonies, I wasn't certain whether it was actually Scythian, but after referencing it on the web, yes, Neapolis in Crimea is a Scythian kingdom. But also, high in the Altai is the Scythian Kingdom of Pazyryk. Did you know that the burial ground of Ak-Alaka contains six kurgans and at Kuturguntas a female body was found in permafrost and she has been subjected to DNA testing. Do you know what the results of these tests were? But the major question of whether Pazyryk and Neapolis qualify as "civilizations", if I strictly read Childe's criteria, then they definitely do not. But given the fact they were founded by nomadic tribes rather than sedentary farmers, they become more of a "civilization" than does any site in Egypt or the Near East. So once again I come across an instance where definitions given to words such as "civilization" become difficult to apply to ALL situations. What is your opinion on these Scythian kingdoms? Also, were these Scythians Neanderthals? Kiik-Koba is also located in Crimea. Gerry

V. Gordon Childe's criteria are a proposal which some folks buy and others don't. You can't call them universally persuasive. Many other definitions of "civilisation" have been offered and they're all somewhat arbitrary. With his Marxist leanings, Childe was inclined to think in terms of dialectical materialism, general laws of social development and objective criteria for pinpointing any social organism and classing it according to how "advanced" it was. There was a time when it seemed indisputable that "savages" (hunter-gatherers) must pass through the "barbarian" (nomadic) stage of evolution before raising themselves to the dignity of "civilisation" (with sedentary life, farming, urbanism, centralised power, writing, literature, philosophy and other modern conveniences, culminating in space flights and the Internet).

 

While there is a grain of truth in the almost trivial observation that cultural innovations tend to accumulate, and social and economic structures tend towards increasing complexity in the course of time, the view of social evolution as progressing from one well-defined stage to another is no longer taken that seriously. We can use labels like "hunter-gatherer" for convenience but they are hardly more objective than classifying a living thing as an "alga", a "worm", or an "invertebrate". We know of societies who made pottery but did not know agriculture, and "savages" who turned directly into farmers, and of "nomads" who erected gorgeous cities and had kings and aristocracy, and who produced exquisite art but left no written literature. The whole issue of "nomadic pastoralism" and its alleged place in the ladder of progress is being reassessed right now, as you surely realise.

 

"Civilisation" is a useful informal term. You can invent any number of formal criteria to narrow down its meaning, but it's a little like hunting the snark with thimbles, care, forks and hope, railway-shares, smiles and soap.

 

I've read of some frozen Scythian tombs in the Altai area (with fascinating tattoos visible on the preserved bodies) but I'm not aware of any DNA results. I'll send you word if I learn of something.

 

Piotr