Odp: RE : Goliath and Uriah the Hittite as IE

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Sent: Sunday, December 05, 1999 8:20 AM

Subject: [cybalist] RE : Goliath and Uriah the Hittite as IE

Piotr quips -- "Goliath as an Indo-European warrior..." 

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Mark Says: 

If we're to accept Goliath as historic, then it's not improbable he was
Indo-European -- Greek even. Think of him as the biblical Big Ajax. 

One question I've never had answered: 

What was Uriah the Hittite's mother-tongue: Hittite? Luvian? Lycian?
Carian? Phrygian? Proto-Armenian? Indo-Aryan? 

The tale of Uriah, David and Bathsheba is found in 2nd Samuel, Chapter
11 (Catholics call this book 2nd Kings). 

To say there is an Indo-European adstrate/substrate in biblical Hebrew,
well, you can always point to the Persians; strict monotheism seems to
have become normative in Babylon during the Exile, and their thinking
must have had influences from the state Zoroastrianism of Cyrus et al.
.....

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Mark

There was a section of Genesis that when I read it a couple of decades
ago, I remember thinking - Boy this doesn't fit with Hebrew mythology,
it feels more like Greek mythology.  And I can't recall seeing anything
in Semitic mythology that comes very close, since then.  

Genesis 6:4 says that: "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days -
AND ALSO AFTERWARD - when the sons of God (here eloheem, which
literally means gods)went to the daughters of men and had children by
them.  They were the heroes of old, men of renown". When Moses first
sent spies into southern Judea they reported they were Nephilim, men of
hugh stature and strength. "The land we explored devours all those
living in it. All the people we saw there are of great size.  We saw
the Nephilim there -the descendants of Anak come from the Nephlim. We
seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes and we looked the same to
them" Num 13:31-33. Here, the Nepholim are probably not the literal
tribe present, but the Spies Moses sent used the Nepholim analogy to
describe the Anakites.

There are additional references to other giants during the inital
invasion and conquest of Israel (Rephaites - who were in at least one
case allies with the Hittites Gen15:20). "The Emites use to live there
a people strong and numerous as the Anakites.  Like the Anakites they
too were considered Rephaites" Deut 2:10-11. And "that too was
considered a land of the Rehpaites who use to live there, but the
Ammonities called them Zamzummites" Deutr 2:20.  And I know there are a
least one more tribe of giants, but I couldn't find it.

Goliath is clearly called a Philistine, but he came from Gath, and that
was in the vicinty of the Anak territory of what was to become Southern
Judea, and to which the reference in Numbers 1;31-33 is about.

The georaphical area of where they were purported to be scattered about
corresponds reasonably well with were the Jews reported the Hittites to
have also resided. And, except for Goliath, does not correspond to the
Philistines cities. (But they don't specifically say the Nephilim or
Rephaites were related to the Hittites).

The Jews did not have a very high opinion of either Caanites and were
mortal enemies of the Philistines, so its not likely that they would be
much influenced by language or custom of either.  But they freely
interacted with the Hittites in the region, even from a very early
stage (Abraham).  If there is an IE substrate, that may be your source.
(Horite = Hurrian is another logical one).

So that brings me to the question that I am throwing out to anyone - is
their any IE tie into the name Nepholim, Anakites, Emites, Rephaites,
Zamzumities or any of the other giant peoples purported by the Jews? 
Is there any IE mythology about Gods creating GIANT heroes, with a name
similiar to Nepholim?

Brent

Well, if I found a stem like nephol- in any IE language my first though would be that it has something to do with *nebh-es- 'sky, cloud', also known with other extensons, cf. Latin nebula, Greek nephele: < *nebh-el-.

Piotr