Re: Bronocice

> Alexander:
> Yes, the combination of the sights of a subject from above and from side
> in one
> picture is well understandable. I can add some examples from the
> Neolithic -
> Bronze Age period: Catal Huyuk (plan of the "town" + picture of the
> volcano),
> Egypt (procession of winners from side + headless defeated from above).
> However I know only 2 cases of picturing vehicles in such a manner.
>
>
> Gerry here: But is the picture of the volcano superimposed on the plan
> of the "town"?

Alexander:
Yes, it is so. This picture (a fresco) is a whole composition.

> And the reference to Egypt, is what you are referring to
> the Narmer Palette? If indeed it is, then the procession is clearly
> seperate from the massacre.

Yes, I meant the Narmer Palette. Well, connection of this 2 parts is not as
close as of a wagon and its wheels, still it seems to be parts of the same
subject. I think this question isn't worth discussing if we are mostly
interested in IE.

> What are the references to the 2 vehicles?

Sorry, I have expressed myself not quite clear. I meant 2 styles of picturing
vehicles where the "plan composition" was used:
1.) style of chariots on the Bronze Age petroglyphs in different parts of
Eurasia (this cultures can be attested as IE)
2.) this only picture on the Bronocice pot

>
> Back to Bronocice, is the idea of a wagon unique for this time period?

Piotr informed us (Nov, 20) about the age of the pot:
<<The pot with wagon motifs has been dated to ca.4725 BP, but seven
calibrated C-14 dates of the same Bronocice III phase yield 4610-4440 BP --
safely the oldest wagon representation in Europe, if not "obviously
ante-2700 BCE". However, cart ruts of an even earlier date (4800-4700 BP,
preserved underneath a barrow) have been reported from Flintbek, Germany>>

As far as I know the very first vehicles (wagons) appeared in Mesopotamia in the
very beginning of the 3rd millenium BC. Equids were used for drawing them. We
can find the pictures on seals, pottery, reliefs; there are clay models; a wagon
of 26th century BC was excavated in Kish. There were also chariots of almost the
same time with solid wheels.
Probably West European wagons were an independent invention? I have no firm
opinion yet.

> At least a wagon indicates group activity -- i.e. a group of animals
> pulling it, a group of foodstuff or people in the wagon. And when you
> think of farming it can only be done with a group (usually a family).
> How different from the nomadic Scythians.

I don't think that the people who made the Bronocice pot could be directly
associated with IE. However the cultural influence can't be excluded.

Alexander