suzmccarth wrote:

>
> --- In qalam@yahoogroups.com, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > suzmccarth wrote:
> > > No, I was thinking of how Phags-pa was associated with the
> >*intent*
> > > of Kubilai Khan's government to establish literacy
> >
> > Do you have a source for that intent, or is it _you_ speculating?
>
> Morris Rossabi
>
> "Since it emphasized and was derived from the colloquial version of
> the Mongol language,

"[The 'Phags-pa abugida] was derived from the colloquial version of the
Mongol language."

That's the sort of absurd thing people say who know nothing about
language. A moment's thought would have raised the question, "How do you
derive a script from a language?" and the author might have said
whatever he was trying to say somewhat differently.

> it blended well with Khubilai's endeavor to
> encourage the employment of the colloquial in writing - even, for

What do we know about "Khubilai's endeavor" to do any such thing?

> example, the use of colloquial Chinese for offical government
> documents in China. In short, the 'Phags-pa alphabet appeared
> ideally suited to transcribe the languages, those with alphabets and
> those with characters, in Khubilai's domain, to serve as a universal
> script, and to contribute to the unification of the frequently
> antagonisitc peoples under Mongol rule. ...
>
> He founded academies expressly for the propagation of the new
> script ..(several pages about his efforts).. Khubilai's scheme can
> be judged a failure. Yet it manifests his concern for a universal
> script and for a written language that reflected the colloquial
> language of his time." p. 161

Utter speculation and probable balderdash.

> Interesting, however, that Rossabi continues,
>
> "In 1269, Khubilai founded a special office to print books under
> official sponsorship, and by 1286, land was assigned to academies
> that used the income to print texts. The growth in printed texts
> offered more access to books and initiated the rise in literacy
> characteristic of the Ming and Ch'ing dynasties." p. 163
>
> Morris Rossabi. Khubilai Khan. 1988.
>
> Lots more about the use of the vernacular in literature, etc. etc.
> but the connection to Phags-pa script is purely incidental. It
> didn't exactly go over with either Mongols or Chinese. So this is
> speculation on my part. Nevertheless, in 1269, Khubilai Khan unveils
> and new script and offers incentives to printing. I guess he was a
> bit of a dreamer.
>
> > Phags pa inherits reversals from Tibetan, which used it for some
> > Sanskrit sounds not occurring in Tibetan. I've never come across a
> > mention of reversing vowels.
>
> Four-fifths of the way down this page under the title "The Reversed
> Letters"
>
> http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Phags-pa/Description.html

--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...