Re: Meaning of sānu?

Dear D.C.

I don't know about mathematical validity, but it certainly has scientific validity.

 

Linguistics is a descriptive science, like geology (I am a geologist). In geology we go from the known facts and infer the unknown, viz., what must have caused the evidence in front of us, based on certain principles of regular change over time (uniformitarianism), and also taking into account the possibility of extraordinary catastrophic events.

In linguistics, it is the same process of inference of unknown facts from the known. Language changes over time in a uniform fashion - this is a proven phenomenon. It can also be affected by diffusionary influences (borrowing, the phonology of other language groups, for example) which are harder to quantify.

Neverthless as William Jones inferred in the late 18th century, the only logical way to account for the similarity of Sanskrit, Greek and Latin (and numerous other languages) was to postulate descent from a common source -- and this was some 72 years before Darwin's famous descent with variation observation.

So I think we can "prove" (by inferential reasoning) the existence of earlier linguistic forms which give rise to later one, and this applies to Old Indic and Middle Indic as well. To give you a simple example from Pāli, take the word dīpa, as atta-dīpo viharatha from the Mahāparinibbānasutta ("Live as an island unto yourselves" or "live as a light unto yourselves"; DN 2, 100). We are not sure what the "original" word was. dīpa in Pāli can be derived from dīpa meaning light in Vedic or from dvīpa meaning island, as in the change from OI > MI dv- > d-, that is the conjunct consonants at the beginning of a word (and in the middle) were simplified. In the Sanskrit version of this sutta, the Mahāparinirvāṇa sūtra, the translator has ātmadvīpair vihartavyam, and has chose "island"; the Tibetans translate gling, "island" and the Chinese, for the most part chose "light". What did the Buddha (or his discples) intend?  "Light", "island" or both? We don't know, but most likely the word he used was dīpa or dīva (where the -p- > -v- a common MI change, and the Ardhamāgadhī form), capable of both interpetations.

My point is that there must have been an earlier form dīpa or dīva to account for the later form dvīpa; obviously if the "original tradition" used dvīpa (the Vedic form) there would not have been any confusion.

There are many other examples which show the same logic - for example pratyeka vs pratyaya where we don’t know exactly what was intended. The Pāli from pacceka is presumably derived from Vedic pratyeka (“each one, every single one”) leading to the meaning of pacceka Buddha as one who awakens by himself and does not teach. The northern Buddhist tradition however understood pratyeka as derived from pratyaya, (“condition”) and a pratyeka Buddha was someone who arrives at enlightenment because of realizing  pratītyasamutpāda, or the interdependent chain of causation. The earliest form of this word was clearly ambiguous and may be the Ardhamāgadhī form pattea, or patteya, which is capable of deriving both pacceka and pratyaya. The Chinese use both forms緣覺, yuán jué, “condition perceiver,” or “awakened by conditions,” and獨覺,dújué, “individual enlightenment”. So what word did the Buddha (or his immediate disciples) use? Obviously we don’t know, but we may logically infer that it was a form (like Ardhamāgadhī) which was capable of both interpretations, as that’s what we see in front of us.

So although linguistics might not be a “hard” science like mathematics and statistics, it is certainly an inferential science and its knowledge base and conclusions have been tried and tested time and time again,

 

Best wishes,

 

Bryan

 

 

 

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From: "Dc Wijeratna dcwijeratna@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 11:42 PM

Subject: Re: [palistudy] Meaning of sānu?

 

Hi Bryan,

Our discussion is becoming interesting,

<<Sometimes we just have to accept that the origin of some words are "unknown",>>

Here are some thoughts of mine: 

The origin of words I think comes from a theory called PIE theory. Wikipedia says 

The Proto-Indo-European language (PIE) is the linguistic reconstruction of a common ancestor of the Indo-European languages spoken by the Proto-Indo-Europeans.

There is also an article in EB on Linguistics-language classification. 

I tried to read. I really can't understand it, not being a linguist. So what I say may be a totally wrong.

PIE theory is ok for language classification. It appears to be something like the classification of plants in Botany animals in Zoo.

However, the construction of PIE is at best guesswork. There are no written records.

Articles do not mention anything about using that theory for deriving the meaning of new languages.

Now I'll talk about something I know. The theory has no mathematical validity. If you draw some conclusions from a data set. You can really make meaningful statements only about that data set. You can make only probabilistic statement about other data which qualifies to become become a member of the data set. In the language of statistics, statistical inference is always associated with a level of confidence. Here the original data set is also conjectured. Well, sorry for the jargona. If you are not familiar with the jargon forget about it. 

PED is a shining example. Sanskrit vocabulary is known data (or assumed to be known). From this he derives Pali meanings (unknown language). Saanu is rather difficult. Check the meaning of Pali in the MW and then compare the meanings given to Paali in PED. 

I wouildn't use that theory in any case to derive meanings of Pali words, The origin Pali is controversial.

I think the language spoken by people of Magadha or Kosala was a mix of Vedic Sanskrit and the unknown language of Mohandejaro-Harappan civilization.

Thank you Bryan, I couldn't find a soul to discuss these matters here in Sri Lanka.

D.C.

On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 11:04 PM, Bryan Levman bryan.levman@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi D.C.

Most Indo Aryan words are traceable to a Vedic root verb, which doesn't work in the case of sa + anu, the latter being an indeclinable prefix. In my experience, most of the words that are not traceable to an IA verbal root are foreign, that is, Dravidian, Munda, or Tibetan, or perhaps an unknown language that existed at the time of the Buddha.

In the case of sa + anu, anu also has a nominal meaning of a "non-Aryan man", that is, an indigenous person (not clear from what root it is derived, so probably a native word, but it goes back to the Vedas per MW), which may relate to sānu in the sense of "wilderness" (pattho) which is one of the meanings for sānu - i e. sa + anu = "he is a non-Aryan" as a metonym for the place where he lives – in deserted places on the top of a mountain. But I admit this is a stretch.

Sometimes we just have to accept that the origin of some words are "unknown",

Best wishes,

Bryan

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From: "Dc Wijeratna dcwijeratna@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 11:03 AM

Subject: Re: [palistudy] Meaning of sānu?

 

Dear Bryan

 

<<It doesn't look like we can go any further with sānu  unless some new source comes to light>>

I have little more ammunition up my sleeve. So I'll fire.

1Another way to look at sānu (saanu) is to consider it as sa + anu. Sa is the third person verbal root meaning he.

Anu is to follow: one follows because of love (lust) devotion (hatred), protection etc. 

The idea of protection comes from the SaanuSutta. The mother was trying to protect the child. By the way Paali is not an important word in the Nikaayas. (Devotion, love protects)

2. <<but the etymology of the meaning "plateau" or "wood" is still not clear to me>>

Actually these come from Sanskrit. Please see the PED entry on Paali. Then see MW entry on Paali. There are many more words given in MW for Paali. The precise meaning is context dependent. Now this is how I understand Plateu. For one who is climbing a mountain a plateau is a place of protection. So a possible connotation of protection. In the language I understand an instantiation of an abstract object. It is necessary to be very careful in reading the PED. PED attempts to select what it fancies is the meaning of a Pali word; The basis of selection is not clear. Please do read the MW entry. Then you will appreciate what I am trying to say

Kindest regards,

D.C.

On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 6:59 PM, Bryan Levman bryan.levman@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Thanks D.C.

It doesn't look like we can go any further with sānu  unless some new source comes to light,

The meaning of "devotion" must come from the root san, but the etymology of the meaning "plateau" or "wood" is still not clear to me.

Best wishes,

Bryan

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From: "Dc Wijeratna dcwijeratna@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2014 1:54 AM

Subject: Re: [palistudy] Meaning of sānu?

 

Dear Bryan,

Thank you for your kind reply.

Your analysis of sānu seems to arrive at the same meaning as the author of the ṭīkā

 as he defines it as sambhajīyate, is devoted,

Can you guess why? Well here is mine. PED gives two meanings for sānu one based on Sanskrit and the other most probably based on Pali. I think the interpretation lines etc. comes from the Sanskrit.

Have a think and have a good day.

D.C.

P.S. I said 'good day'. It is noon here. So take day as 24 hours.

On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 7:13 PM, Bryan Levman bryan.levman@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Thanks D.C.

Your analysis of sānu seems to arrive at the same meaning as the author of the ṭīkā

 as he defines it as sambhajīyate, is devoted,

Best wishes,

Bryan

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From: "Dc Wijeratna dcwijeratna@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 8:27 AM

Subject: Re: [palistudy] Meaning of sānu?

 

Dear Bryan and Jim,

Please read this along with my previous message a few minutes ago.

<<The ṭīkā seems to be saying that the root of sānu is san>>

That is the opinion of the ṭīkā. 

For me saanu is the combination sa + anu as explained in the message mentioned above. 

<< the etymology that D.C. suggests seems a stretch – i. e. the plateau as a place of rest and devotion>>

Yes agreed. We are using two completely and radically different approaches.

The two approches are:

My approach is to go from the known to the unknown. 

The other is to derive from the unknown. 

This second method has no mathematical (mathematics is the language of logic) validity. And it leads to many meanings. I am not aware of a single Pali word (in the Suttas) where experts agree on a single meaning or a definition for a word.

Best wishes.

D.C. 

On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 9:08 PM, Bryan Levman bryan.levman@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Dear Jim, D.C.

 

Thanks for your help on this. The ṭīkā seems to be saying that the root of sānu is san, with a meaning of sambhatti (“distribution, allotment, bestowal, possessing enjoying, favouring, honouring” per MW s.v. sambhakti). The root san, sanati means “to give, distribute, possess, enjoy” per MW.

 

D. C., you mention that sana is devotion and “this is the meaning of sānu in the  Saṃyutta.” Could you point out where that occurs? Are you referring to the Sānusuttaṃ (SN 1, 208f)? Certainly Sānu’s name here doesn’t mean “plateau” and may well mean “devotion” as he was named by a upāsikā who wanted him to be a monk. The ṭīkā certainly seems to be saying that sānu has the meaning of sambhajīyate (“is devoted) and sevīyate (“is served), but it seems a long way from these meanings to “plateau” and the etymology that D.C. suggests seems a stretch – i. e. the plateau as a place of rest and devotion.

 

The St. Petersburg dictionary gives several alternate meanings of sānu “known by the Lexicographers” (vana, mārga, vātyā and kovida), all of which seems to suggest that the etymology of the word isn’t well understood.

Thanks again for your help,

Best wishes,

Bryan

 

 

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From: "'Jim Anderson' jimanderson.on@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2014 7:07 AM

Subject: Re: [palistudy] Meaning of sānu?

 

Dear D.C.,

Your take on ṇu differs from mine::

<< nu is to employ serve, associate etc. with devotion.>>

My take:
ṇu is an uṇādi affix added to the root san to form sānu. This affix is
probably the one described at Kacc 671 (673). Affixes are prevalent in Abh-ṭ
when giving a derivation of a word.

I will eventually get back to you on the word pāḷi.

Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dc Wijeratna dcwijeratna@... [palistudy]"
<palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: November 23, 2014 4:23 AM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Meaning of sānu?

Dear Bryan, Jim and all

a) Where can I get a copy of the Abhidhanappadipika-ṭīkā?
I think Jim has already answered it. I have a Abhidhanappadipika published
in Sri Lanka with Sinhala and English meanings,

b) what does vetthiyaṃ mean under item 607?
The word is not in the Suttas. So very difficult to give a meaning. I am
giving it a try.
There is a word vetheti in the Pitaka, meaning bind, bonding etc.
[see ṭhassa
tho].

c) I am not clear on the meaning of the last few phrases
Patiṭṭhate asminti pattho: Pattho: standing on something--think of Sīle
pathiṭṭhāya naro sapaññpo…Visuddhimagga
Sana sambhattiyaṃ, ṇu, sambhajīyate sevīyateti sānu--Sana is devotion, nu
is to employ serve, associate etc. with devotion.

This is the meaning of sānu in the Samyutta. [In Pali adjectives are also
nouns, names etc.]

The sānu as a plateau is in the commentaries. It is derived from the above.
Plateu is a place of rest, freedom etc. Devotion to Dhamma brings rest,
freedom, peace, and gets rid of fear.

There could be many mistakes in the above. Please read it carefull and
comment on anything that you find not clear.

Sukhii hotu

D.C.

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Metta is being friendly to everybody

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Metta is being friendly to everybody

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Metta is being friendly to everybody

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Metta is being friendly to everybody