Gerry:
 
Nostratic is to Proto-Nostratic what Indo-European is to Proto-Indo-European.  Nostratic is the name of the theoretic macro-family that encompasses Indo-European, Altaic, Uralic, etc., whereas Proto-Nostratic is the name of the theoretic "language" from which the resultant member languages (Proto-Indo-European, etc.) of the Nostratic macrofamily are descended/derived.  Likewise with Indo-European.  It is the name of the language family that encompasses Gemanic, Italic, Celtic, Slavic, Baltic, etc.).  Proto-Indo-European is the "language" from which the member language groups are descended/derived.  In short, Nostratic is the name of the group, and Proto-Nostratic is the name of the language.  Following and extending your statement below, one could say that there is no need for Proto-Indo-European because there is already the Indo-European language family.  However, Proto-Nostratic and Proto-Indo-European are the root languages of their respective (mega-)families.  Hopefully, this helps.
 
BTW, as I understand some of current classification proposals, there are people who favor listing Afro-Asiatic (Hamito-Semitic) as a sister group of Nostratic rather than a daughter group.  Therefore, instead of having
 
Nostratic    -    Indo-European
                      Afro-Asiatic
                      Uralic
                      Altaic
                      ...
 
We would have
 
Nostratic    -    Indo-European
                      Afro-Asiatic
                      Uralic
                      Altaic
                      ...
 
Afro-Asiatic    -    Semitic
                          Hamitic
                          Chadic
                           ....
 
Andy Howey 
-----Original Message-----
From: Geraldine Reinhardt [mailto:waluk@...]
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 19:19
To: Nostratica@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nostratica] Re: Swadesh Lists

Hello H.M. Hubey,
 
Thanks for your alternate opinion that Nostratic is NOT synonymous with Proto-Nostratic.  That's what I think as well.  IMO, if Nostratic is the megalanguage family, then there should NOT be a need for Proto-Nostratic.
 
You write:
English is Germanic, and hence it is descended from proto-Germanic. But protoGermanic is
descended from ProtoNostratic hence, English is "Nostratic".
 
I reply:
Yes, English is Germanic (IMO descended from Germanic).  Because English is a subgroup of Germanic which is a subgroup of Indo-European, which in turn is a sub-group of Nostratic, an hierarchical structure is established.
 
Yes, I also understand your automotive example.  Except Honda, vehicle, and car all mean the same thing.  Are you perhaps implying that languages should have the same "non-hierarchical" measurements?
This becomes a tricky etymological problem.  Please explain further.
 
Gerry
 
----- Original Message -----
From: H.M. Hubey
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Nostratica] Re: Swadesh Lists



Geraldine Reinhardt wrote:
Ned,
First of all apparently your application to join last week didn't register
but I have just approved your membership.  You are now a  member of
Nostratica.  Welcome.

Yes, I understand that the Nostratic Language is a mega language
(conjectured) which includes I-E, Uralic & Altaic, Semitic (Cushitic),
Kartvelian, Dravidian, and Yukaghirian.

I didn't realize that Nostratic was synonymous with Proto-Nostratic.....
It is not.

It is easy to explain via an example. English, Dutch, German, Swedish etc are members of
a set which is called the (set of) Germanic (languages) e.g. the name for this set of languages
is "Germanic". It is hypothesized that these languages descend from a single/unitary language
called Proto-Germanic.


had
been under the impression that Proto meant ancestor to (or coming before).
I also was unaware that Nostratic LanguageS (in the plural) were languages
descended from a single ProtoNostratic language such as Proto-IndoEuropean.

English is Germanic, and hence it is descended from proto-Germanic. But protoGermanic is
descended from ProtoNostratic hence, English is "Nostratic".

Another example: Honda is a car. A car is a vehicle. Hence Honda is a vehicle.

Now that's REALLY confusing.   Plus, your listing below:
"Proto-Indo-European,  Proto-Afro-Asiatic, Proto-Uralic, Latin, English,
Spanish, Arabic,  Hebrew, Tamil, Turkish, Korean...and on and on" is
haphazard and includes languages and proto languages that show no
subordination one to another.  For example:  Latin and English and Spanish
are all members of Indo-European.  Perhaps you need to research the
hierarchy of language families on the web (if indeed there is any
pre-ordained hierarchy).  Actually, the more I ponder this concept I also
have difficulty separating a language from a regional dialect.

About Homo erectus not having a language -- we simply aren't sure of that.
What we do know is that manipulating fire was known to erectus (plus he/she
lived in a group) and to manage fire takes the ability to communicate.
Whether or not this communication was verbal or not, we cannot be positive.

Gerry



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