Re: Hervarar saga; The Icelandic v-glyph or enigma

Re: The Icelandic v-glyph or enigma

[See also: Snorra-Eddu Tome II: the morphological treatise. p.48.]

Text take from essay dedicated to the "Bremen" Scholar "Ari Fróði" [Ari opposes also the

nordic alphabet: "norrænu".

"Muðurinn er leikvöllur orðanna, en tungan stýrið; á þeim leikvelli eru reistir þeir stafir, er allt mál gjöra, [ok fimm hríngir eru um þá stafi slegnir, eðr settir í málshætti.

Í fyrsta hríng eru fjórir stafir, er heita höfuðstafir, þá má til einskis annars nýta, en vera upphaf ok fyrir öðrum stöfum: þ, v, h, q."

The meek translation.

The mouth and the throat is the field were the words play, but the tongue is the rudder; on that playing field are risen those letter-glyphs, which every measurable word is made of, [and those letter are surrounded by five rings, or placed according to their measurable conduct.

"Belonging to the first ring are four letter-glyphs, which are denominated capitals, they can be utilized to nothing else, but to be the beginning of other letter-glyphs and be other letter-glyphs predecessor: þ, v, h, q."

We with classical background and familiar with sound Icelandic know that the v-shape can be found in places where we now use: u, ú, f, ff." Then the meaning of the initial letter-glyp is important.

According to Grim's law Latin is Older than the not so Germanic tongue we name today Icelandic. But according to Tacitus and Snorri, before there where spoken same/similiar tongue in Sweeden and Norway as in Britain . Tongue that is neither Danish nor other such Germanic sort. Danish spread into Norway [Sweeden] ca. 800 A.D.

One can ask if Grim's "law" is this based on the fact that the world was considered to be about 5000 years old. As I see it Latin came forward by Greek Slaves around 300 BC. and is therefore one of the younger dialects.

The claim of my ancestors is that my mother tongue is measurable in its every unit, and the letter-glyphs belonging to the Icelandic Alphabet were well defined with rather verbal idea, I must add.

The claim explains why Grim's Law and other such alien speculations to not apply to Icelandic or distinguish it satisfactory.

ÖrVar is composed word the genitive inflective part of the symbol denominated "Ör".

"Ör" is also scar and "Skar" can say old in Icelandic. Was/Var "Ör" maybe "örr". Örr is faster than Ör: I reckon at least by my skaldic measures.

"ör" goes in or through "rör" in my tonge as "rör" is arrow-shaped hollow cane or stik.

More Icelandic measure.

Topology: drýli > drýldinn :adjective.

Topology: Mont Blanc > Montinn :adjective.

And Why not

Carpates > "Karp'að'er". As they are mountains and "Karp" is Mont also.

"Karpatafjöll" we name "HárVaðarFjöll" also as it sounds.

"Hana Karpatha" I translate this root-neoplasm: she was debated or made cocky.

Thanks Blanc Uoden.

Ö Was in "öndverðu": "A" from upperOcean. Frá f:öð' ur er F:að'ir. "Först" you spell first. :-aðar is most often suffix that marks passive adjektive

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Petr,
>
> Something else which I just thought of, which might point to Germanic
> /f/ rather than /w/ in the ancestor of the Old Norse name, is the fact
> that Proto-Norse *w or *u would normally cause a mutation of a
> preceding *a. Thus, Old Norse 'ör' "arrow", nominative & accusative
> plural 'örvar' (cf. the English word and the Gothic nom.acc. pl.
> 'arhwaznos'); ON söngr < Proto-Germanic *sangwaz. But whether a name
> would be affected by this sound change would I suppose depend on when
> the name reached Iceland, for example whether the poem was preserved
> in oral tradition that came with the early Norwegian settlers, or
> arrived later having been borrowed from some other Germanic language
> after the mutation had ceased to be effective.
>
> LN
>
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Petr Hrubis hrubisp@ wrote:
> >
> > Thank you very much, again. Now that I know that "Harvaða" could
> actually be "Harfaða" < Pre-Proto-Germanic ** /karpatha/, it is clear
> it can be connected with the Latin word "Carpates", pointing to PIE
> *karpat(h)es.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Petr
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: llama_nom 600cell@
> > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, 7 September, 2006 10:23:08 AM
> > Subject: [norse_course] Re: Hervarar saga
> >
> >
> > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Petr Hrubis <hrubisp@> wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > Well, thank you for the information. I must say I know that the name
> > is believed to refer to the Carpathians, but as Ptolemy used the name
> > "Carpates", the Old Norse and Latin words are incompatible. Or do I
> > misunderstand the Grimm's Law? Why, the Old Norse /v/ must be from PG
> > *w < PIE *w, but latin /p/ cannot be derived from PIE *w. That's why
> > I'm asking, in fact.
> >
> > I think that by the mid 13th century, at least, it's generally
> > believed that there was no longer any difference in pronunciation
> > between Icelandic 'v' and 'f' except at the beginning of a word (see
> > e.g. Gordon: An Introduction to Old Norse, paragraph 16). This is
> > shown by the fact that the letters are used interchangeably in
> > medieval manuscripts without regard to etymology. For example 'ævi'
> > "life; age, time" may also be spelt 'æfi' (cf. Gothic 'aiws' "age");
> > conversely, 'hafa' "to have" may also be spelt 'hava' or 'haua' (cf.
> > Gothic 'haban' "to have"). So 'Harvaða' could just as well stand for
> > earlier *Harfaða. In fact, a medial 'f' or 'v' in an Icelandic word,
> > as spelt at this time, could each in theory represent either
> > Proto-Germanic *f or *b or *w. Compare 'Tyrfingr', thought to be
> > related to the name of the Gothic people called 'Tervingi' by Latin
> > writers; although an alternative explanation relates the sword name to
> > the word 'torf' "turf, sod of earth", perhaps with referrence to its
> > being buried (Turville-Petre, ed.: Hervarar saga ok Heiðreks, note
> > 56/21). The other idea, that Tyrfingr is related to 'tjörr' "sword",
> > "spear" would also involve 'f' standing for earlier *w.
> >
> > > Could the name be analysed internally? For example "stone-way",
> > /har-/ being from PIE *kar "stone" and "vaða" meaning "way, passage" ???
> >
> > I don't know enough to judge the likelihood of such an etymology.
> > Sorry I can't be more help there.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: llama_nom <600cell@>
> > > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Monday, 4 September, 2006 11:17:09 PM
> > > Subject: [norse_course] Re: Hervarar saga
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello Petr,
> > >
> > > The name is generally believed to refer to the Carpathian Mountains.
> > > 'Harvaða' is thought to derive from a form of the name inherited from
> > > Proto-Germanic and affected by the Proto-Germanic sound change known
> > > as Grimm's Law whereby voiceless stops became fricatives. 'fjöllum'
> > > is the dative plural of 'fjall' which means "mountain".
> > >
> > > LN
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Petr Hrubis <hrubisp@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello everyone,
> > > >
> > > > could somebody possibly tell me what exactly "Harvaða fjöllum "
> > > means and which geographical feature it describes?
> > > >
> > > > Thank you very much in advance!
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > >
> > > > Petr
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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