Thank you very much, again. Now that I know that "Harvaða" could actually be "Harfaða" < Pre-Proto-Germanic ** /karpatha/, it is clear it can be connected with the Latin word "Carpates", pointing to PIE *karpat(h)es.

Regards,

Petr

----- Original Message ----
From: llama_nom <600cell@...>
To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 7 September, 2006 10:23:08 AM
Subject: [norse_course] Re: Hervarar saga


--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Petr Hrubis <hrubisp@...> wrote:
>

> Well, thank you for the information. I must say I know that the name
is believed to refer to the Carpathians, but as Ptolemy used the name
"Carpates", the Old Norse and Latin words are incompatible. Or do I
misunderstand the Grimm's Law? Why, the Old Norse /v/ must be from PG
*w < PIE *w, but latin /p/ cannot be derived from PIE *w. That's why
I'm asking, in fact.

I think that by the mid 13th century, at least, it's generally
believed that there was no longer any difference in pronunciation
between Icelandic 'v' and 'f' except at the beginning of a word (see
e.g. Gordon: An Introduction to Old Norse, paragraph 16). This is
shown by the fact that the letters are used interchangeably in
medieval manuscripts without regard to etymology. For example 'ævi'
"life; age, time" may also be spelt 'æfi' (cf. Gothic 'aiws' "age");
conversely, 'hafa' "to have" may also be spelt 'hava' or 'haua' (cf.
Gothic 'haban' "to have"). So 'Harvaða' could just as well stand for
earlier *Harfaða. In fact, a medial 'f' or 'v' in an Icelandic word,
as spelt at this time, could each in theory represent either
Proto-Germanic *f or *b or *w. Compare 'Tyrfingr', thought to be
related to the name of the Gothic people called 'Tervingi' by Latin
writers; although an alternative explanation relates the sword name to
the word 'torf' "turf, sod of earth", perhaps with referrence to its
being buried (Turville-Petre, ed.: Hervarar saga ok Heiðreks, note
56/21). The other idea, that Tyrfingr is related to 'tjörr' "sword",
"spear" would also involve 'f' standing for earlier *w.

> Could the name be analysed internally? For example "stone-way",
/har-/ being from PIE *kar "stone" and "vaða" meaning "way, passage" ???

I don't know enough to judge the likelihood of such an etymology.
Sorry I can't be more help there.



>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: llama_nom <600cell@...>
> To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 4 September, 2006 11:17:09 PM
> Subject: [norse_course] Re: Hervarar saga
>
>
> Hello Petr,
>
> The name is generally believed to refer to the Carpathian Mountains.
> 'Harvaða' is thought to derive from a form of the name inherited from
> Proto-Germanic and affected by the Proto-Germanic sound change known
> as Grimm's Law whereby voiceless stops became fricatives. 'fjöllum'
> is the dative plural of 'fjall' which means "mountain".
>
> LN
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Petr Hrubis <hrubisp@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > could somebody possibly tell me what exactly "Harvaða fjöllum "
> means and which geographical feature it describes?
> >
> > Thank you very much in advance!
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Petr

>







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