Sjuler,

I (and am sure many others) look forward to your efforts on Dalecarlian. Though most of us have probably heard of about it, I know I've never had a real opportunity to see material about it. I spent several hours this week-end past going over the material. Hope to see more, and wish that more literature were readily available so as to its actual use.

It is disappointing that the Juntish material is mostly off the web. Glad I was able to print it off whilst it was still available.

Erek


--- "sjuler" <sjuler@...> wrote:
I know the Faroese site at UniLang Wiki very well, and I know the guy
(Johan Petur Dam) who made it. In principle he translated a Faroese
book on the subject into English and tranformed it into internet
format. A very great job indeed.
It is not too strange that Faroese is best represented langauge on
UniLang Wiki since languages like English, Spanish, French etc are so
well known anyway.
My Dalecarlian site is loosely based on the Faroese site, i.e. I am
presenting my stuff in a quite similar way. My plan is to make the
Dalecarlian BETTER represented than Faroese on Wiki. Of course, this
is because of the same reason as faroese is the best represented at
the moment. Dalecarlian is even more unknown than Faroese, thus I
believe that an extended work on Dalecarlian site will be profitable.


/Sjuler

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, erek gass <egass@...> wrote:
> I don't know whether anyone posted (and I missed the info),
but "wiki" also has a very nice Faeroese site -- in fact, it is the
BEST represented language @ unilang2.
>
> Erek
>
>
> --- pdhanssen@... wrote:
>
> Takk, Sjuler.
>
> Sorry it has taken me so long to reply.
> To answer your question,
> I do not remember how I found the Norrlandic site,
> I thought that someone here in norse_course referred to it.
> Anyway, from there, it wasn't hard to take a look at the Jamtlandic
contents.
>
> I shall miss them,
> but I thank you and your friend for posting them.
>
> Good luck with the Dalecarlian pages at UniLang Wiki.
>
> Takk, Sjuler.
> Med vennligste hilsener,
> Paul.
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 3/19/2004 4:18:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
sjuler@... writes:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I found my copy of "An Introduction to Modern Faeroese"
> > > by Lockwood and it is indeed spelled "Sjúrður".
> > >
> >
> > Then we know (and will never forget) :)
> >
> >
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > I thought it was the work of someone else,
> > > > > someone who is also member of the norse_course discussion
> > > > > But I could be wrong and I am going on memory right now.
> > > > > My notebook is packed away for the near future.
> > >
> > > I just remembered. I found a reference to Norrlandsko
(Norrlandic)
> > at this URL ...
> > >
> > > http://www.geocities.com/jamtlandic/norrlandic/norrlandic.html
> > >
> > > ... and to Jamtlandic at this URL ...
> > >
> > > http://www.geocities.com/jamtlandic/
> > >
> > > Both are by the same author, I think.
> >
> > Yes, they are indeed. I made them ;)
> >
> >
> >
> > > Have you and Bo Oscarsson seen these?
> > >
> >
> > Me, sure, but I don't know if Bo has seen them.
> > The one about Norrländska is about a conlang based on the
dialects of
> > the northern parts of Sweden; noone speak like this since it has
> > fragments from most parts of the province. I invented it just to
play
> > around and show it to other norrlanders as an internal practical
joke
> > (a serious one, though), more or less.
> > The one about Jamtlandic - which I hope I haven't linked to
anywhere -
> > is Jamtlandic with lots of etymological "corrections". The
> > inflections are actually simpler than what you see on those pages
> > (but we DO have four cases!). I hoped only me and my brazilian
friend
> > should know about it, but you easily get the URL by deleting the
last
> > parts of the URL for Norrlandic homepage (which I have linked to
at a
> > few places). My plan was that I should delete the Jamtlandic
pages as
> > soon as my friend had finished the exercises, but still - after
1½
> > year - he is working on it.
> > BTW, how did you find these URL:s?
> >
> > I am currently working on the Dalecarlian pages at UniLang Wiki,
but
> > those damn nasal vowels make me hesitate!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 3/17/2004 5:18:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > sjuler@... writes:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, pdhanssen@... wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would go for the spelling 'Olboka'. Bo disagrees
though, and
> > > > he's
> > > > > > the boss...
> > > > >
> > > > > I think it's a good idea to keep the "r" in the spelling,
> > > > > to show the kinship with the other Skandinaviska languages.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hmmm, perhaps 'rð' should work in Jamtlandic spelling.
> > Faroese 'ð' is
> > > > never pronunced (not in the original manner, anyway), and
they use
> > > > it. Jamtlandic have the original pronunciation in some words
> > > > (alternatively, it has become silent like in most other
Mainland
> > > > Norse dialects).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In modern Faeroese, "Sigurður" has become "Sjurður".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I thought it was "Sjúrður".
> > > > >
> > > > > I should look again, although right now it shall be a little
> > > > > hard to find my resources since we (my wife, 2 sons and I)
have
> > > > just moved into a smaller apartment and most of my library is
> > packed
> > > > away.
> > > >
> > > > Okay. The spelling 'Sjúrður' may be verified like this.
Search
> > > > for 'Sjúrður' and 'Sjurður' on, e.g. (preferably),
> > www.google.com . I
> > > > get the following result:
> > > >
> > > > 'Sjúrður': 962 hits,
> > > > 'Sjurður': 9 hits.
> > > >
> > > > Thus, 99% of the found spellings are 'Sjúrður', and I
imagine that
> > > > the reminder of 1% is due to misspelling (intentional?).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Last year, in the spring and summer, I collected a large
> > number
> > > > of
> > > > > > internet references to someone's work on producing a
grammar
> > and
> > > > on-
> > > > > > line textbook on the Jamtska language.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which one? Bo Oscarsson's resources?
> > > > >
> > > > > I thought it was the work of someone else,
> > > > > someone who is also a member of the norse_course discussion
> > group.
> > > > > But I could be wrong and I am going on memory right now.
> > > > > My notebook is packed away for the near future.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I have made such a resource, but it is not linked to since the
> > > > material is not supposed to be spread outside a very limited
> > group (I
> > > > have copied material from Old Norse Course and rewritten it).
I
> > can't
> > > > give you the link here. The web pages will be terminated as
soon
> > as
> > > > my friend (and Jamtlandic language student) is finished with
the
> > > > course. I am intending to write one more similar to the
> > Dalecarlian
> > > > at UniLang Wiki, and less etymology (16h century
conjugations and
> > > > declinations) embedded in the grammar (but more in the
spelling).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Perhaps Erek Gass can help us out.
> > > > >
> > > > > Have you seen this other look at Dalecarlian?
> > > > > ... http://www.mdstud.chalmers.se/~md2perpe/Dalska/ ...
> > > > > ( ... http://kb.vefur.is/gestabok.asp ... )
> > > >
> > > > I know the first link since it was the first one about
> > Dalecarlian I
> > > > encountered.´
> > > > The second link conains a poem in Jamtlandic with a very
strange
> > and
> > > > bad spelling, but nothing about Dalecarlian there. I can't
change
> > the
> > > > posting I made there on the Guestbook - yes, I am the guilty
> > one :)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Takk, Sjuler.
> > > > > Med vennligste hilsener,
> > > > > Paul.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hälsningar,
> > > >
> > > > /Sjuler - (aka Jens Persson)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > In a message dated 3/16/2004 5:43:14 PM Eastern Standard
Time,
> > > > sjuler@... writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Takk, Sjuler.
> > > > > > > I have bought a copy of Bo Oscarssons Jamtska Orlboka.
> > > > > > > Your explanation below of " rð > l " explains why the
> > > > dictionary is
> > > > > > called " Orlboka " instead of " Orðboka "
> > > > > > > as I would have expected.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have been discussing the spelling 'rl' with Bo. He's
really
> > a
> > > > fan
> > > > > > of it since in Standard Swedish (based on Central Swedish
> > > > > > dialects), 'rl' is pronunced as a retroflex l
> > > > > > ('pärla', 'karl', 'arla', 'farlig' etc), which is quite
> > similar to
> > > > > > the cacuminal l which has replaced 'rð' in Jamtlandic
(and
> > most
> > > > other
> > > > > > non-danish and non-southwestern norwegian dialects).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would go for the spelling 'Olboka'. Bo disagrees
though, and
> > > > he's
> > > > > > the boss...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In modern Faeroese, "Sigurður" has become "Sjurður".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I thought it was "Sjúrður".
> > > > > > 16th (and 17th?) century Jamtlandic had 'Sjuler'; that's
why
> > I use
> > > > > > this nick. Dalecarlian has preserved the '-er' ending in
the
> > > > definite
> > > > > > form of (strong masculine) nouns. For example, 'vargen'
> > [wArr´Gen]
> > > > > > (nom) vs 'vargin' [wArr´dZen] (ack) - 'the wolf'.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am enjoying very much the internet pages about the
> > Dalecarlian
> > > > > > language.
> > > > > > > Sjuler, are you writing these pages?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, and I am far from finished. I am hesitating about the
> > > > > > orthography though, especially how to write nasal vowels.
I
> > > > use 'ñ'
> > > > > > in the web pages at the moment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Last year, in the spring and summer, I collected a large
> > number
> > > > of
> > > > > > internet references to someone's work on producing a
grammar
> > and
> > > > on-
> > > > > > line textbook on the Jamtska language.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which one? Bo Oscarsson's resources?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is great that someone is preserving these languages.
> > > > > > > Can Gutniska be recovered?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Propago was trying a few years ago, but I haven't heard
> > anything
> > > > from
> > > > > > them. Their email addresses have stopped working, so I
cannot
> > > > contact
> > > > > > them :(
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Takk, Sjuler.
> > > > > > > Med vennligste hilsener,
> > > > > > > Paul Hansen.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tack för visat intresse!
> > > > > > Hälsningar,
> > > > > > /Sjuler
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In a message dated 3/14/2004 3:35:50 PM Eastern Standard
> > Time,
> > > > > > sjuler@... writes:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I know the history of Jamtland since I am from the
> > province
> > > > myself
> > > > > > > > (and I know Bo Oscarsson, whose web pages -
> > > > > > > > http://w1.635.telia.com/~u63501054/ -
> > > > > > > > I assume you are referring to).
> > > > > > > > Jamtlandic used to be a pure Western Norse dialect,
and my
> > > > > > ancestors
> > > > > > > > spread Western Norse as far east as into Finland
> > (province of
> > > > > > > > Austrbotn). No far from the Baltic Sea, with Austrbotn
> > not far
> > > > > > away
> > > > > > > > on the other side of the sea, people actually spoke
like
> > this
> > > > in
> > > > > > mid
> > > > > > > > 14th century:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Vyrduleghum herra sinum herra Magnusi med guds nad
> > > > > > > > Noregs Swya ok Skane konongi h/oe/yllsa Lafrandz
Gunnasson
> > > > > > logmader
> > > > > > > > j Jamtalande ok Siugurder Endridar sson vmbods madr
Biarna
> > > > > > Erlings-
> > > > > > > > sonar j fyrnemfdo landæ q. g. ok sina audmiuka
skylldugha
> > > > > > þ/oe/nosto.
> > > > > > > > yder vilium mit kunnigt gera at eftir bode ok brefui
ydru
> > min
> > > > > > herra
> > > > > > > > tokom mit prof a R/oe/fsundum j gilda skalanum a
manadagin
> > > > nesta
> > > > > > ef-
> > > > > > > > tir Bonofacii m/oe/sso a fimta are ok tuttugta rikis
> > ydars min
> > > > > > herra
> > > > > > > > vm aftak *Hunælfs Alfuers sson er Olafuer Biarna sson
> > vard aat
> > > > > > skada
> > > > > > > > vfirir syniu varo þar þa erfwingiar hins dauda
logligha
> > till
> > > > > > stemfdir.
> > > > > > > > Var þat aat vpphafue vidratto þæira at Olafuer ok
Hunæfuer
> > > > varo
> > > > > > til
> > > > > > > > gæst hia Jone iambr hafde þa Hunæfuer fyrnemfdr
eina aar
> > ok
> > > > stak
> > > > > > > > Olaf j briostid firir ofwan geirwortuna so at Olafuer
var
> > > > lengi
> > > > > > krankr
> > > > > > > > af. sagde þa Hunæfuer at hann vildi eii gort hafua
honom
> > en
> > > > > > Olafuer
> > > > > > > > suarade. þat venter ek at þu gerdir þat firir engum
> > ilvilia.
> > > > baro
> > > > > > > > þetta ok suoro Biorn iambr ok Jon Þoriss sson at so
var
> > ord
> > > > eftir
> > > > > > orde
> > > > > > > > sem nu er sagt. stod þetta þæira millium ual vm
fim aar at
> > > > þæir
> > > > > > varo
> > > > > > > > ekki sattir en fim vettrum lidnum komo þæir badir
saman
> > til
> > > > > > > > R/oe/fsunda ok var þa Olafuer j kirkiugardenum kom
þa
> > Hunæfuer
> > > > > > > > gangande j kirkiu garden ok talade till Olafs laat eii
> > illa
> > > > > > Olafuer
> > > > > > > > min þar sem þik þr/oe/ngir enki vm. Þui nest stak
Olafuer
> > > > > > oftnemfdan
> > > > > > > > Hunef j briostid med knifue ok sagde so. haf þetta
firir
> > hitt
> > > > er
> > > > > > > > fyrri var. lifdi Hunæfuer nokora dagha eftir þat en
þo do
> > > > hann þar
> > > > > > > > af. suoro þetta Besse Berþors sson ok Ketill
Skeggia sson
> > at
> > > > so
> > > > > > var
> > > > > > > > sem nu er sagt. Tokom mit ok viglysingar vitni þæira
> > manna er
> > > > so
> > > > > > > > heita ok so suoro a bok Gregorius Jorundar sson ok
Helgho
> > > > Vestars
> > > > > > > > dottor at Olafuer oftnemfdr kom till þæira
samd/oe/ghers
> > sem
> > > > hann
> > > > > > > > hafde þat vigh wnnit ok lysti firir þæim at þat
sem
> > Hunæfuer
> > > > fæk
> > > > > > af
> > > > > > > > mik huart sem hann fær þar af bott ædr bana þa
gerdi þat
> > engin
> > > > > > vttan
> > > > > > > > ek. var þetta vigh wnnit a fiorda aare ok tuttugta
rikiss
> > > > ydars
> > > > > > min
> > > > > > > > herra. Var ok bodin ydr þæghn min herra ok frendonum
> > b/oe/tr
> > > > eftir
> > > > > > > > godra manna dome. Ok till sannenda at mit fengum eii
meiri
> > > > vissu
> > > > > > ok
> > > > > > > > marghir adrir godir men med okkr af þessu profue
settom
> > mit
> > > > okkorr
> > > > > > > > insigli firir þetta profs bref er gort var a deghi
ok are
> > sem
> > > > fyr
> > > > > > > > segir."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > BTW, my nick 'Sjuler' is 16th century flavor of 14th
> > century
> > > > > > Sjugurðr
> > > > > > > > (Icelandic: Sigurður'). Modern Jamtlandic would
be 'Sjul'.
> > > > Note
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > rð > l development here.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Compare the Eastern Jamtlandic mid 14th century
language
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > text
> > > > > > > > above with the following Up-Swedish text (Yngre
> > > > Västmannalagen)
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > early 14th century:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Gæfwer faþer ællær moþer eno barne mera æn
andro. hafwe
> > > > mæþan þön
> > > > > > > > lifwa. oc æcke længær. siþan scal þæt til skift
bæra. mæþ
> > þera
> > > > > > manna
> > > > > > > > witnom þær hos waro þær faþer ællær moþer utt
gaff. oc
> > tolf
> > > > manna
> > > > > > > > eþe. oc siþan sin lot op bæra. hwart æfftær þy.
þæt ær
> > byrþom
> > > > til
> > > > > > > > boret. §.1. Fæstir man cono. oc wighis mæþ
hænne. ware
> > þæghar
> > > > full
> > > > > > > > giftning þera. swa som þön i sæng haffþen waret.
§.2.
> > Hafwe
> > > > alldre
> > > > > > > > ængen wizorþ at wita barn i giffta sæng."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One easily notices some differences in orthography,
but
> > the
> > > > > > samples
> > > > > > > > are too small to give real examples of differences.
One is
> > > > that
> > > > > > Old
> > > > > > > > Jamtlandic has 'þui' (dative of 'þat' =neut. 'it')
and
> > Old Up-
> > > > > > > > Swedish 'þy' (dative of 'þæt' =neut. 'it'),
though. Still
> > > > today we
> > > > > > > > notice this difference since Jamtlandic has 'di' and
> > > > Swedish 'ty'.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Today, Dalecarlian is the most arcane language of
Mainland
> > > > > > > > Scandinavia since Faroy Gutnish - in principle
unchanged
> > > > between
> > > > > > > > medieval age to 1900 - is extincted.
> > > > > > > > Jamtlandic is more or less like any Northern Swedish
> > dialect,
> > > > but
> > > > > > > > slightly more Norwegian/Tröndish and slightly less
arcane.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Currently, I find Estonian-Norse qite interesting.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > /Sjuler
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, erek gass
> > <egass@...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Perhaps, it is important to remember the political
> > > > implications
> > > > > > > > applying to the growth of the Swedish Kingdom. Sweden
> > > > conquered
> > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > small domain around them and incorporated them, often
> > > > uneasily,
> > > > > > into
> > > > > > > > its "empire". It isn't only Dalska that
is "different".
> > So
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > Jamtish, Gutnish, asf. I refer you to the internet
urls
> > from
> > > > > > > > Jamtland. One contains a rather interesting history
of
> > how
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > (really Norwegian) province went through turmoil
during
> > the
> > > > > > medieval
> > > > > > > > period as it went back and forth, and describes the
> > suffering
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > Jamtish population endured from the wars and
occupations.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Erek
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- "sjuler" <sjuler@...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Konrad, what about those Norse dialects that were
not in
> > > > any way
> > > > > > > > > written down on paper? What did Norse spoken in
Northern
> > > > Sweden
> > > > > > > > sound
> > > > > > > > > like, for example? Of course, we don't know. My
point
> > here
> > > > is
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > statement like "Fortunately, West Norse was the most
> > > > > > conservative
> > > > > > > > > branch, often markedly so." is based only on the
written
> > > > > > records.
> > > > > > > > > POerhaps Northern SCandinavians still spoke Viking
age
> > > > Norse in
> > > > > > > > > Medieval times. We don't know, and therefore one
should
> > > > restrict
> > > > > > > > > oneself to a statement like "Fortunately, West Norse
> > was the
> > > > > > most
> > > > > > > > > conservative branch amongst the known Norse
dialects,
> > often
> > > > > > > > markedly
> > > > > > > > > so."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > BTW, since Icelandic did preserve vocabulary,
grammar
> > etc
> > > > in an
> > > > > > > > > almost uncanny way, but did not preserve stuff like
> > pitch
> > > > > > accent,
> > > > > > > > > short and over-long syllable lengths and nasal
vowels,
> > it
> > > > may be
> > > > > > > > > interesting to listen to a dialect that did. Here
are
> > some
> > > > sound
> > > > > > > > > samples:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > http://www.unilang2.org/wiki2/wiki.phtml?
> > > > > > > > > title=Dalecarlian_sound_samples
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Konrad, any comments on it?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > /Sjuler
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson"
> > > > > > > > > <konrad_oddsson@...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Berglaug
> > > > Ásmundardóttir
> > > > > > > > > > <berglauga@...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > Sjuler wrote: "As far as I know, the only sound
> > which
> > > > > > Icelandic
> > > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > preserved better than all other Scandinavian
dialects
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > > þ-
> > > > > > > > > sound
> > > > > > > > > > (like 'th' in English 'thing')."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Don't forget our lovely unvoiced resonants,
which
> > all
> > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > scandinavians seem to have lost in some freak
> > > > accident! ;)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > unvoiced r, l, m, n are fun to say!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Lovely, I might add ;)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > and wouldn't ð also be a 'preserved sound'?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Yes, no doubt.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > i'm well aware that icelandic isn't anything
like
> > old
> > > > norse
> > > > > > > > was,
> > > > > > > > > > but really, it's mostly in the vowels and their
> > > > surroundings
> > > > > > > > (that
> > > > > > > > > > would be lenght of syllables), the consonant
changes
> > are
> > > > > > minimal.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I agree. ll, nn, g between vowels(segir), maybe
final
> > d/b
> > > > > > > > > (land/lamb)
> > > > > > > > > > and a few others. Not much of a change at all.
> > However,
> > > > as you
> > > > > > > > > point
> > > > > > > > > > out, the vowel-system is changed. I would say
quite
> > > > radically
> > > > > > so.
> > > > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > we had a living speaker, however, I think we could
> > learn
> > > > it
> > > > > > > > without
> > > > > > > > > > having to learn the whole language over again.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > (hmm.. same as with english,
> > > > > > > > > > > really, their vowels are all messy nowadays..
> > compared
> > > > to a
> > > > > > > > > > thousand years ago, at least)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > English is nowhere near the same tongue it was a
> > thousand
> > > > > > years
> > > > > > > > > ago.
> > > > > > > > > > The price of an empire, I suppose.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think what students need to understand about old
> > > > > > pronunciation
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > this: there were many 'old norse' languages and
just
> > as
> > > > many
> > > > > > ways
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > pronouncing them. In Sweden, for instance, we had
the
> > > > > > Gautlandic
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > east and west, Swedish proper, Gutnish and
others. In
> > my
> > > > > > opinion,
> > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > was the Old Gutnish that was the 'jewel of the
east' -
> > > > > > > > > conservative
> > > > > > > > > > like the oldest West Norse, but with a radically
> > differing
> > > > > > > > > phonology
> > > > > > > > > > and even usage. Danish was also markedly
different in
> > > > > > > > > pronunciation,
> > > > > > > > > > and to some extent in usage and vocabulary, from
West
> > > > Norse.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > > > > way
> > > > > > > > > > I see it, one of the main advantages of old West
> > Norse is
> > > > > > that it
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > considered to have been very uniform (einsleit).
> > Because
> > > > > > Faroese
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > Icelandic were once the same language as West
> > Norwegian,
> > > > > > matching
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > vocabulary and usage as well, we can get a fairly
good
> > > > idea of
> > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > it was pronounced by comparing the how these
tongues
> > are
> > > > > > > > pronounced
> > > > > > > > > > today and doing the math. Although it had the most
> > > > complicated
> > > > > > > > > vowel-
> > > > > > > > > > system (through more mutations) and the least
> > speakers of
> > > > any
> > > > > > > > > nordic
> > > > > > > > > > tongue from the 9-10 centuries, West Norse is now
by
> > far
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > easiest
> > > > > > > > > > tongue to reconstruct, as there is a firm basis
for
> > > > > > comparison.
> > > > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > is ironic, perhaps, given the numerical
inferiority ;)
> > > > > > > > Fortunately,
> > > > > > > > > > West Norse was the most conservative branch, often
> > > > markedly
> > > > > > so.
> > > > > > > > > Only
> > > > > > > > > > Gutnish equals its antiquity. Shamefully, Gutnish
was
> > > > > > neglected,
> > > > > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > > > out to die and never used as a literary tongue.
Our
> > only
> > > > book
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > tongue was written in the early 14th century.
> > > > Fortunately, it
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > old
> > > > > > > > > > enough to give us some idea of the tongue in its
> > golden
> > > > age. I
> > > > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > > > we are very lucky, on the other hand, that Old
> > Icelandic
> > > > was
> > > > > > used
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > a literary tongue in the west as early as 1100-
1130,
> > when
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > tongue
> > > > > > > > > > was only slightly changed from its golden age.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Vesið ér heil (pronun.: uesið êr
hæil (short
> > æ+i -
> > > > > > between
> > > > > > > > ei &
> > > > > > > > > ai ;)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Konrad
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > Konrad
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Berglaug
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an
e-
> > mail
> > > > to:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > _____________________________________________________________
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> > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-
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> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail
> > > > > > to:
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> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > > >
> > > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > > >
> > > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail
> > > > to:
> > > >
> > > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> >
> > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> >
> > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail
> > to:
> >
> > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
>
> Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
>
> To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
>
> norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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