Gary -
Response below -

-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Penzler
To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 10/19/2003 4:48 PM
Subject: RE: [norse_course] Greetings and questions

Thank you so much for your help. One further question:

SNIP

>
>Question one:
>In the solutions to the exercises for lesson one, "Óláfr is also a

king"

>is translated as, "Óláfr heitir ok konungr." To me, this says rather

that

>"Olaf is the name of another king." My translation of that line was,

"Óláfr

>ek ok konungr." Can someone tell me if I'm wrong, and why?
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Heiter = 'is called' and it takes a compliment:
>'Olaf is called also a king'
>which looks a bit like idiom for the more common English expression:
>'Olaf is also a king'.
>This is not so confusing when you think about how we seek to know
>some ones name: "What is your name?" while a Spanish speaker says:
>"What call you yourself?". The point is that there are many ways
>to both extract and provide information. Many times, these techniques
>become codified such that the expression is greater than the sum of
>its parts. This we call idiom. It is one of the second order

difficulties

>of learning an unfamiliar language.
>
>
>Raymond

Well, that's exactly what my question revolves around. Using "is" and
using "is called" do truly amount to the same thing. However, when asked
to translate "is" I'll tend to use "is." I mean, if one's as good as the
other, why not use the one that's closer to the original?

Consider: Asked to translate A. A translates exactly to B. Both B and C
mean functionally the same thing. This, to me, doesn't necessarily mean
thatA also translates to C, or even if it does, I think B is still a
better choice than C.

Does that make sense?

~Gary Penzler

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Yes indeed - what you are saying makes sense. A first-order difficulty of
learning an unfamiliar language is the vocabulary. This relies upon a
contrived, one - to - one correspondence of words from the unknown language
to the known. What you are considering above is the condition when this
first approximation to language use begins to break down. When this happens,
you enter into second-order difficulties of idiom. Take a look at all the
idiom you use daily. How about the sentence I just wrote? Why is it that I
suggest you 'take' a look rather than 'give' or 'have' a look. I may ask you
to 'have a look around', 'give this your attention, but not 'give a look at
the idiom you use daily' - although there is certainly nothing wrong with the
suggestion (and 'have' rather than 'give' works fine). This is, as discussed,
because the phrases themselves have become sort of petrified into a specific form.

Yet, I realize that I haven't answered your question. The prudent position for
you is quite simply to not use idiom at this point in your study of Old Norse.
This position is more difficult than you may think since, if you are a native
English speaker, you think in native English idiom. Therefore, when you attempt
to write something into Old Norse, you will probably try to translate directly
from English idiom into Old Norse. You'll want to say something like 'there is
a king called Olaf' or 'Olaf does not kill the wolf' (which will give you trouble
since you don't know the Old Norse word for 'do'). With this in mind - keep it
as simple as you can. Say 'a king is called Olaf' or 'Olaf kills a wolf not'.
These are all simple, present tense statements that seem to have fallen out of
modern favor. Also, as you suggest, say 'Olaf is a king' rather than 'Olaf is
called a king'. This one should do not because 'is called' is incorrect - since
we are not in a position to judge that. Rather, use the simplest form that is
most absent of idiom. It should also be made clear that idiom is not in the
least undesirable - but simply inconvenient to the beginner who must get
through some of the first-order difficulties of learning an unfamiliar language
before moving into more natural - and, hence, more idiomatic language use.

Raymond


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