Konrad -

Not that you've won a convert or anything - but I can't help but get curious about the some of the ideas inherent within your latest
posting:

Many learned and bright English poets had no training
in the proper use of the subjunctive in English. This lack of proper
training is still evident today. Some modern poets and writers have
even gone so far as too deny or reject the subjunctive in English.
However, those writers whose culture and thinking are truly Germanic
are seldom guilty of this mistake in writing. The fact that so many
writers of Modern English reject inherited grammar and real English
words in favor of loan-words is a clear sign that most speakers and
writers of Modern English are no longer Germanic in a any cultural
or philosophical sense. On the other hand, there are still those who
refuse to use Modern English as a literary language in any other way
than as a Germanic language.

The third statement:
The fact that so many writers of Modern English reject
inherited grammar and real English words in favor of loan-words is
a clear sign that most speakers and writers of Modern English are
no longer Germanic in a any cultural or philosophical sense.

rests within a causal relationship to the first:
Many learned and bright English poets had no training
in the proper use of the subjunctive in English.

Meaning that one requires training in proper use of the subjunctive
because Modern English is no longer Germanic. This would be true
of the use of any foreign construction.

You speak as one nostalgic - although - this is not exactly a criticism.
Perhaps, I'm asking that you might make a bit more clear your
position regarding English as a Germanic cultural institution. For
instance, why is it so important to you that the English language
be Germanic as opposed to being more closely allied with the
Romance branch of the world's languages? Naturally, the English
language resembles, by analogy, a compost pile but, if you do any
gardening, you'll recognize this as something creative within itself.
Still, I don't wish to argue since I really don't think I, at this time,
understand your position.

Raymond


-----Original Message-----
From: konrad_oddsson
To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 9/21/2003 12:41 AM
Subject: [norse_course] Re: <-eth> ending in English

Heilir góðir nemendr.

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Haukur Thorgeirsson
<haukurth@...> wrote:
> > The examples here are not dirct equivalents in English of the
Norse change in endings. The older English ending <-(e)th> is 3rd
per. Present indicative not subjunctive, whereas Norse <fari> is
present subjunctive, isn't it?

Yes, the 3rd pers. pres. sg. -eth ending is indicative. I have read
most of the English Romantics and am aware that the -eth ending has
been used in literature with a subjunctive meaning, but such usage
is incorrect. Many learned and bright English poets had no training
in the proper use of the subjuctive in English. This lack of proper
training is still evident today. Some modern poets and writers have
even gone so far as too deny or reject the subjunctive in English.
However, those writers whose culture and thinking are truly Germanic
are seldom guilty of this mistake in writing. The fact that so many
writers of Modern English reject inherited grammar and real English
words in favor of loanwords is a clear sign that most speakers and
writers of Modern English are no longer Germanic in a any cultural
or philosophical sense. On the other hand, there are still those who
refuse to use Modern English as a literary language in any other way
than as a Germanic language.

Regarding the subjunctive in daily speech, here is an understandable
and clear example of right usage:

Indicative: I WAS tired. ON Ek var þreyttr.
Subjuctive: WERE I tired, then.... ON Væri ek þreyttr, þá....

> >> He insisteth that she go.
> >> *He insisteth that she goeth.

Right.

> > You can say in English:
> >
> > "He insists that she go" (subjunctive)
> > "He insists that she goes" (indicative)
> >
> > Both equally right and quite common.

Common is one thing, right is another. The right option above is the
first one, as the verb 'insist' suggests a subjuctive meaning. The
verbal ending -s in 'she goes' in indicative, not subjuctive. It is
simply a common modern substitute for -eth and never subjunctive.


> Agreed. I understand the first is more formal.

The first line is correct, the second an example of bad usage.

> Early literary Modern English sometimes helps us
> with Old Norse where colloquial 21st century
> Modern English doesn't.

See my remarks above Modern English as a Germanic language.

> In the first NC lesson, for example, I took some
> phrases from the KJV of the Bible. "I am he who liveth." etc.

Biblical language is something of a universal standard for Germanic
tongues as a whole, representing good usage. However, the new trend
of translating the Bible into ever simpler modern speech has meant
that this standard is no longer universal in Germanic tongues. The
reason for this trend is the desire on the part of many missionaries
to win cheap and easy converts without the baggage of upholding the
English tongue as a Germanic cultural institution. In view of this,
it should hardly be surprising that so few Engish attend church more
than once a year, if at all.

> If I ever get to the point of writing a NC lesson
> introducing the subjunctive I'll certainly start with
> some subjunctive examples from English.

This would undoubtedly be helpful to speakers of Modern English.

> Anway, the point here was that only the first of the two
> following sentences are correct Icelandic.
>
> Hann vill at hon fari.
> *Hann vill at hon ferr.

Likewise and literally in English: 'He will that she fare', but not
'He will that she fareth'.

Regards,
Konrad.

> Kveðja,
> Haukur



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705
739206:HM/A=1732163/R=0/SIG=11n0nglqg/*http://www.ediets.com/start.cfm?c
ode=30510&media=zone> click here

<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egrou
pmail/S=:HM/A=1732163/rand=880727969>

A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.

Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
<http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/>

To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:

norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .