Heill Terje!
--- In
norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Terje Ellefsen"
<radiorabia@...> wrote:
> If I speak Danish, you speak Norwegian.
> And both of us speak German.
True. Modern Bokmål and Modern Danish are classed together by modern
linguists. Old Norse (Norroena) and Old Danish (Dansk Tunga)
are also classed together by modern linguists. Finally, all four of
them are classed as 'Germanic' languages - each of the four descend-
ing by different paths from Proto-Germanic through Proto-Norse.
However strange it may sound at first, the statement 'Norwegians
speak Danish, but Icelanders and Faroe Islanders speak Norwegian' is
true. Of course, one would never actually say it like that - the
statement is too confusing for a number of reasons: 1) the 'Danish'
of today is not the same as the classical 'Dönsk Tunga' of yore 2)
modern Norwegian and modern Danish are not 'identical', neither in
vocabulary or in pronounciation, despite be-ing classed together 3)
modern Icelandic is not 'identical' to the 'Norroena' of yore,
neither in vocabulary or pronounciation 4) modern Faroese is not
'identical' to the 'Norroena' of yore, neither in vocabulary or in
pronounciation. Yet despite these and similar facts, the statement
'Norwegians speak Danish, but Icelanders and Faroe Islanders speak
Norwegian' is true from a linguist´s point of view. Of course, we
should be careful to use standard terminology when discussing the
modern languages in the company of non-specialists: Swedish, Danish,
Norwegian, Faroese, Icelandic, etc..
> Sørlandsk (Norwegian from the south (coast)) has several
dialects, none of which are excactly the same as Danish, norsk
bokmål,
Yes.
nynorsk, or old norse for that matter.
The dialects are 'close' to each other, but 'far' from Old Norse.
It's a dialect. Or to be more precise, a bunch of dialects,
> a dialectal area. Sørlandsk is no more danish than the other
norwegian dialects just because the pronounciation is different.
True. Pronounciation has little or nothing to do with how linguists
actually classify languages and dialects thereof. Two people can
speak the 'same' language with pronounciations so divergent that all
communication is rendered impossible. It would be very hard to say
what is 'more danish' - impossible, in fact, without examining the 2
major factors linguists DO use for classification purposes: grammar
and vocabulary. I doubt that Sörlandsk is 'more danish' than other
closely related Norwegian dialects.
Where I come from,
> Lillesand, we have plenty of words more commonly assosiated with
nynorsk or old norse, but not danish. For example, we say 'au' (ON
ok/auk) instead of 'også'.
True. It is a fact that some features from Old Norse have survived
in various modern Norwegian dialects which have not in the Standard
Modern Danish. These survivals are dispersed throughout the country
in a rather uneven fashion. Even the Black Death and centuries of
Danish rule could not completely wipe out all traces of Old Norse.
Anyway, my point is that norwegian has been severly crippled by
> other languages like german, danish and english (or rather latin-
based words), yet it's still norwegian.
True, the core of the language is still Norse.
The people didn't stop speaking norsk, but
> it changed. Sad, but true.
Norway was hit harder than any country in Europe by the Black Death -
scholars are still trying to calculate what percentage of the total
population actually died, but current estimates run roughly between
60-80% (based on recent articles I have seen). We know that entire
districts were in some cases inherited by sole surviving individuals
- not just one farm, but all of the farms in a given area. Just try
to imagine this state of affairs. Almost the entire clergy, as well
as the literate upper class, are believed to have perished. In many
cases, children were left to teach children everything from how to
speak to the facts of life. From the Black Death onwards, the tongue
suffered one blow after another: foreign rule, no schools, burning
of monasteries and centers of learning during the reformation, the
execution of Catholic clergy, large immigration by individual not
able to speak Norse, and finally - economic and cultural dominance
by the majority non-West Norse speaking population over the outlying
rural areas, where the remains of West Norse were spoken.
It is important to bear these tragedies in mind when trying to under-
stand what happened to the language of Norway. Norway was not alone
in suffering from the Black Death. All of Scandinavia was hit hard.
As far as West Norse in concerned, both Iceland and the Faroes were
hit by the Black Death. While it did not entirely wipe out the whole
population, it did kill huge numbers of people. Did the Black Death
effect the language in Iceland or the Faroe Islands? Yes, for sure -
the years during and after the Black Death changed how the language
was pronounced and spoken. Isolation was one of many factors as to
why these languages survived. Strangly enough, what Icelanders and
Faroe Islanders speak today is actually OLDER than anything spoken
in these regions since the Black Death. But that is a long story -
ask about that another time.
Kveðja,
Konráð.
>
>
>
>
> >From: "konrad_oddsson" <konrad_oddsson@...>
> >Reply-To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> >To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [norse_course] Re: 'Ek em frá Aust-Ögðum' - Oddur
Gottskálksson
> >þýddi
> >Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 03:32:15 -0000
> >
> >Sæll Terje!
> >
> >--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Terje Ellefsen"
> ><radiorabia@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > "With sout Norwegian I mean the dialects spoken not in the
south
> >east, but rather in the extreme south and south west. In this area
> >people speak with a very strong Danish accent, which makes the
> >classifications quite difficult."
> > >
> > > I come from a small town near Kristiansand in Aust-Agder, so I
> >speak south norwegian. Yet to me, it's not that much Danish. True,
> >many of us use soft consonants rather than hard (e.g. d instead of
> >t), but I think there's a common misconception that down south, we
> >speak almost Danish.
> >
> >You speak Danish. I have relatives from Aust-Ögðum and have
visited
> >and stayed in the area. I also inherited a lot of books published
in
> >southern Norway during roughly the 17th - 19th centuries. Prior
the
> >Norwegian independence, the published language of southern Norway
> >(usually called 'Bokmål') was actually called Danish (which is the
> >'correct' term for the language). The name 'Bokmål' was chosen
after
> >independence, largely for political reasons. Originally, 'Bokmål'
> >was a term used by Norwegians to refer to the Danish language as
it
> >appeared in books - this was before most Norwegians had learned to
> >read or speak this new 'Bokmål', in the aftermath of the
protestant
> >reformation. The Danish-speaking merchant class in southern Norway
> >had grown tremendously in power and prestige since the Black Death
> >nearly destroyed Norway roughly two centuries earlier. West Norse
> >(the original language) as a living language was dead in most of
> >southern Norway by the reformation. Those who still spoke it were
> >looked down on by the gentile 'upper' classes, who spoke
the 'educa-
> >ted' 'book'-language of the Danes, who were then in charge of the
> >country. There were few schools, especially in the poorer outlying
> >areas where the language was still descended from Norse rather
than
> >Modern Danish. While the Black Death left Norway reeling and close
> >to linguistic extinction, it was the reformation that delivered
the
> >death-blow to Norse in Norway. The fatal decision was made by the
> >wealthy ruling elite in the south of the country - it was a
decision
> >made purely in their own self-interest (they could not understand
> >the Norse language), a decision which would later greatly anger
the
> >rural population of their country after indepence, a decision
which
> >would damn their own country to linguistic extinction - the Danish
> >Bible. Yes, that´s right - the Danish Bible and the thousands of
> >Biblical tracts and commentaries printed and disributed to every
> >home in the Danish language. The Danish Bible - read every Sunday
at
> >church, every day at home. Did they have a choice? Yes, they did.
> >They had a choice and they made the wrong decision - they chose
the
> >Bible only they could read (the fancy 'bokmål' one) over the one
the
> >rest of their impoverished countrymen would be able to understand.
> >They rejected the excellent New Testament translation made by
Oddur
> >Gottskálsson into Norse, which became the basis for all of the
later
> >Icelandic versions. Oddur was 1/2 Norwegian and 1/2 Icelandic -
and,
> >most importantly, he offered both countries his translation (more
> >correctly, others did his bidding for him). Oddur translated the
New
> >Testament into Norse secretly as he laboured away secretly night
> >after night in a 'fjós' (Norse for 'cow-house', older 'féhús'). He
> >had to hide his work from the Bishop of Skálholt - fourtunately
for
> >Oddur, the bishop was old and going blind. To this day, Norway is
> >the only Scandinavian country not to have a Bible in its
language -
> >for this we have the Danish-speaking ruling class to thank, a
class
> >which did not care for the welfare and education of their
countrymen
> >until long after independence from Denmark. Truely, they still
don´t
> >care - they never have. Only Ireland lost a higher percetage of
its
> >native population than Norway to the United States and Canada.
Why?
> >Need we ask? Their ARE real West Norse words for what was happing
in
> >Norway from the Black Death (svarti dauðinn) down to our times - a
> >few are 'lénsmennska', 'lénsríki' and 'lénssjórn'. There is a
class
> >of cold and cruel robber-barons in every Scandinavian country
(there
> >is no exception to this rule), but in no Scandinavian country have
> >they committed worse crimes against their own countrymen than in
Nor-
> >way. I have heard it said 'they should have been hung for
treason'.
> >Without taking sides on the issue of capital punishment, I will
say
> >that I am firmly opposed to their plans for the 'Norwegian'
language.
> >
> >Oddur Gottskálksson þýddi - en honum enginn hlýddi
> >
> >Kveðja,
> >Konráð.
> >
> >P.S. I once recall hearing a rather well-educated Norwegian woman
> >complain about all of the mideaval Norwegian art and valuables now
> >sitting in Danish Museums. I told her, 'One can take a ferry and
> >visit friends and museums in Denmark - one cannot take a ferry to
> >visit the language of Norway'. As she obviously had no clue what I
> >was even talking about, I informed her that Norwegians can now
stop
> >blaming the Danes - nothing happened without the full co-operation
> >of the self-interested and guilty in back home in Norway.
> >
> >Ask any educated Icelander and you will likely receive a similar
> >answer about what went on in Iceland during the long years leading
> >up to independence - 'you know, connections, money to be made,
etc.'
> >
> >May we have happier Nordic tides in years to come.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Konrad.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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