Keth, when you say something about modern Norwegian, I take your word for
it, believe me. But as I understood it, you were saying that the same
thing applied to Old Norse, and I didn't think it did. Hopefully Oskar and
Haukur will wake up in a few hours' time and tell us what they think.
Me at HAHVAHD?!? What a gross insult! :-)
E-Ching
(Where do you study? - America.)
At 12:52 AM 2/10/2001 +0200, Keth wrote:
>Hello E-Ching! :)
>
>You wrote:
> >Keth, are you sure you got this right? I'm hoping Haukur and Oskar will
> >comment on this, but you seem to be saying that in Norwegian a vowel is
> >pronounced short if it's before a double consonant (not vowel, I assume
> >that was a typo). This is not the impression of reconstructed Old Norse
> >that I got from Haukur/Oskar's message. I thought they were telling us
> >that a vowel can be long or short whether or not the consonant after it is
> >double or single.
>
>Yes, it was a typo. See the marks below.
>Am I sure I got it right? ...
>Well, that is at least what I learned in school when I was around 6 years old.
>And for me it is the most natural thing in the world.
>But I cannot document it for you quite yet.
>However, if you need documentation
>(you are at Harvard, right?) I will certainly be able to
>find it for you, since I can always ask the linguists that I know.
>
>But when I think of it, it may indeed sound a bit strange to people used to
>work with other languages. For example in Dutch. the rule is opposite.
>In Dutch the long vowel is orthographically indicated by writing
>a double vowel. Example:
>
>gaan (Dutch "to go") - long vowel
>gek ( "crazy") - short vowel.
>
>[Den] Haag (city) - long vowel
>hek (fence) - short vowel
>hak (heel) - short vowel
>haak (hook) - long vowel
>
>There are some exceptions to this rule in Dutch,
>e.g. maken (to make) - long vowel.
>But here the a is "aan het eind van een lettergreep"
>and then the vowels are long. [that's all elementary
>that's why I can dash it down quickly]
>
>In Old Norse "lengt" was a terribly important concept.
>I am sure there exist many leaned dissertations written about
>that topic. In modern Norwegian, length is however much
>less important. That's why we have problems pronouncing
>Old Norse words correctly, because we do not have the double
>consonants combined with long vowels any more. But the combinations
>are usually short/long or long/short. (always?)
>The ortography has adopted to this and that is why we do not
>use specific long vowels in our ortography. i.e. á é í ó ú ý
>aren't there any more. Only a e i o u y + diphtongs + æ ø å.
>But the long vowels are still in the speech. But we indicate them
>by following them by a single consonant.
>
>Keth
>
> >Haukur, I think Oskar was trying to explain to me once that pre-aspiration
> >(/t:/ as /ht/) is the modern way of doing long consonants - is that
> >right? My impression of long consonants like [t:] from Japanese is that
> >we're supposed to keep our tongue in the stopped position for longer, not
> >make two stops. But maybe that's not how it works in Old Norse, because I
> >have trouble seeing how one could hear that the tongue was staying in the
> >"t" position for longer, unless the stop was always released in Old
> Norse ... ?
> >
> >E-Ching
> >
> >
> >At 11:32 PM 2/9/2001 +0200, Keth wrote:
> >>Heill Haukur!
> >>
> >>In Norway too, the length of the vowel is determined by
> >>the number of vowels following. I didn't know
>Erratum: ^^^^^^ write "consonants" here.
> >>it was that way in MI too.
> >>
> >>Example:
> >>
> >>brønn - the ø is short, because of the double n following it.
> >>brun - the u is long because it is not followed by a double consonant.
> >>bratt - short a
> >>prat - long a.
> >>kratt - short a
> >>krater - lonng a.
> >>
> >>What strikes me when I hear Norwegians singing Norwegian songs,
> >>is that 1) I can understand the words - as clearly as if it was read
> >>from a book. 2) What I hear isn't distorted in any way.
> >>The words always match the music. After all, they were made for each
> other :)
> >>
> >>However, if American singers (example: soprano) sing Norwegian
> >>songs (e.g. Grieg), I often just hear a beautiful song, but it
> >>isn't clear what story the words are telling.
> >>
> >>
> >> >The length of vowels and consonants
> >> >is important and should not be ignored.
> >> >I will illustrate with an example.
> >> >
> >> >In modern Icelandic we distinguish between
> >> >a and á in the following manner. The first is
> >> >always pronounced [a] or [a:] and the second is
> >> >always pronounced [au] or [au:]. The : denotes a
> >> >lengthening of the sound - in MI a vowel is
> >> >long if there is only one consonant following
> >> >it, otherwise it is short.
> >>
> >>So the language has compensated for the loss of the significance
> >>of length. It wanted to keep the number of phonemes unchanged,
> >>and had to make some of the vowels into diphtongs for that reason.
> >>
> >>
> >> >In the theoretical reconstructed pronunciation
> >> >of ON the difference between a and á is not in
> >> >quality (type of sound) but in quantity (length
> >> >of sound). Thus a is always pronounced [a]
> >> >(never [a:]) and á is always pronounced [a:]
> >> >(never [a]). The length of the vowel does not
> >> >depend on the number of following consonants.
> >> >
> >> >Below I have listed four different words with
> >> >four different meanings. They should all be
> >> >clearly distinguished in pronunciation, whether
> >> >modern or reconstructed.
> >> >
> >> >Word RP MI Meaning
> >> >
> >> >satt [sat:] [saht] true
> >> >sátt [sa:t:] [sauht] content
> >> >sat [sat] [sa:t] sat
> >> >sát [sa:t] [sau:t] sitting
> >> >
> >> >Can you do it?
> >>
> >>Well, I have difficulties with the double consonants
> >>because I have a tendency to pronounce them twice.
> >>If "t" is pronounced "teh", then "tt" becomes pronounced
> >>a little bit like "teh-teh".
> >>For me the "t" is always short, because it is a little
> >>like spitting - not exactly in sound, but in the abruptness
> >>of the tongues motion.
> >>
> >>But maybe the double t should be more like the hissing of
> >>a ballon or a car tyre running out???
> >>Með kveðju,
> >>Ketill
>
>
>
>
>Sumir hafa kvæði...
>...aðrir spakmæli.
>
>- Keth
>
>Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>norse_course-unsubscribe@egroups.com