Re: Italo-Celtic dialect base words?

From: stlatos
Message: 70945
Date: 2013-02-15

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" wrote:
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> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister wrote:
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> > Could it have been Lusitanian? That could count for the P.
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> Lusitanian has *ikko- from *h1ek^wo- 'horse', so I would expect its 'wolf' word to be *ulko-, *wolko-, or *lukko-, depending on the form it started with.
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> Many years ago Miguel suggested that the tribal name Volcae meant 'Wolves'. That may well be, if they belonged to the Illyro-Lusitanian branch and used the *wl.kWo- form. They were associated with the Silva Hercy:nia, and if Proto-Celtic borrowed Volcan *Perku:nia: as *Ferku:nia:, that would explain the lack of *p...kW assimilation.
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Why do you think so many words were borrowed? You use that excuse whenever any ev. doesn't fit your rules; don't you think you could just be wrong? f > xW would have hapened in Proto-Celtic long before this borrowing by one group in one place long after Celtic split up.


> I do not find Sean's ad-hoc claim that Celtic did not assimilate *perkWu- to *kWerkWu- convincing,


It's not ad hoc. kW > k by u first, which is seen in Greek, too. Compare fairhwus = world, fairguni = mtn Got; showing that at least sometimes KW>K by u, apparently also after u in the pronouns ugkis vs. igqis . *kWuruz > kaurus shows it's fairly old (before ur>or , at least). Some analogy, assuming the change was regular, later occurred (qim-, qum-, etc.).


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even though Bolelli proposed a similar makeshift to salvage Hercy:nia as pure Celtic (Cronologia relativa di alcuni fenomeni della fonetica celtica, Ricerche linguistiche 5:101-4, 1962). Labialization of a labiovelar is fairly widespread, but assimilation of a labial to a following labiovelar is rare, and it strains credulity to suppose that Celtic and Italic did this independently,
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It doesn't have to be independent; if kW > k by u happened in one dia., that doesn't stop both from having p-kW > kW-kW a little later (though the rule isn't as simple as you say).


It could still be independent. Compare Skt and Greek, both having variants of Ch-Ch > C-Ch, even though no other IE felt the need to do any such thing. Comparatively, kW > p in various env. is very common.


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resulting in Itc. *kWerkWu- (Lat. _quercus_) against Ctc. *ferku- (or whatever Sean supposes). I find it much more plausible that Ctc. also had *kWerkWu-, leading to Gaul. *perpu-.
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> I do not know if Perpignan, presumably from fundus *Perpinia:nus owned by a Gallo-Roman *Perpinius, can be cited as evidence. It would require a somewhat awkward Gallo-Latin 2nd-decl. *perpus, -i: 'native oak' vel sim. against expected 4th-decl. *perpus, -u:s.
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> DGK