> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "bmscotttg" <bm.brian@> wrote:
> > >>> Finnish/Estonian <olut> suggests that Germanic was not the
> > >>> immediate source, but another IE language provided the
> > >>> word to both Finnic and Germanic.
> >
> > >> Why?
> Jouppe's compilation of IE loanwords in the Cybalist Files includes Fi. <ahku> 'cinder', referred to either Late PrimN *asku(n) (obl. case) or PGmc *azgo:n, and Fi. <ahjo> 'forge, furnace, hearth' referred to PGmc *asjo:n, so the vocalism of expected *alut does not appear to be proscribed.
>
> On the other hand, beside <olut> Jouppe cites Fi. <ohra> 'barley', Middle Proto-Finnic *os^tra- referred to Balt. *as^tra- < PIE *h2ak^- 'sharp'; Fi. <ohdake> 'thistle', MPF *os^ta-kkes^, root referred to Balt. *a(k)s^ta-; and Fi. <onki> 'fishhook' referred to Gmc. *angan-.
>
> If these are IE loanwords, they could equally well be from North Venetic with retained */o/, namely <ohra>, MPF *os^tra- from Ven. *hozd- cognate with Lat. <hordeum>; <ohda-ke>, MPF root *os^ta- from Ven. *ozd- 'branch' (cf. Grk. <o'zos>, HG <Ast>, etc.); and <onki> from Ven. *onk- 'crooked' (cf. Lat. <uncus>).
The usual explanation here has been to date these loans as sufficiently old that they would precede *o > *a in Baltic/Germanic, an approach which has been used for several other odd IE > F substitution patterns as well.
Given loans into western Uralic reflecting IE laryngeals as *k, J. Koivulehto has even suggested an "NW Indo-European" that would have remained archaic rather long, usually implicitly identical to pre-Germanic or pre-B-Sl. It could be analyzeable as a substratal independant branch as well, but at least comparing *os^tra with *hozd- seems unsatisfactory due to leaving the three-consonant cluster typical of loanwords unaccounted for.
OTOH it is not clear to me if this particular pattern can be divorced from the so far basically unexplained issue of *o-loans from Indo-Iranian into the western Proto-Uralic dialect(s). This would include at least:
*s^oj-ta- "to take care of" < Iranian *sca:ya:-
*poc^a(w) "reindeer" < Iranian *pacu < *pek´u
---
*ons´a "part" < *anc´a- < *h2onc´o-
*ora "thorn, awl" < *a:ra: < *e:la:
*orja "south"; "slave" < *a:rya-
*s´ola "intestine" < *c´a:la:- < *k´olo-
*s´orwa "horn" < *c´rva < *k´erw-o-
*tojwo "hope" < *da:yva- < de:ywo-
possibly also the likes of:
*orpa "orphan" << *orbho-
*pors´as "pig" << *pork´os
(most from the updated version of the IE > Uralic old loanword list:
http://tcoimom.suntuubi.com/?cat=13)
One possibility is of course to invoke variability in the pronunciation of PII *a translating to several vowels of the richer PU system (substitutions *a > *a, *a > *ë, *a > *ä and possibly even *a > *e exist) but this isn't an explanation as much as an excuse.
I would not rule out these various cases of potential *a > *o even being a Uralic-internal issue rather than one related to any particular IE branch. Worth noting is e.g. that a competing school of PU reconstruction would replace the PU vocalism *o-a with *aa-a (though trying to go with this particular solution for all cases would seem to require backdating "barley", "beer" etc. to dialectal Proto-Uralic instead of Proto-Finnic).
_j.