Re: PIE suffix =t in food?

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "bmscotttg" <bm.brian@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
>
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <bm.brian@> wrote:
>
> >> At 9:17:25 PM on Monday, October 29, 2012, dgkilday57 wrote:
>
> >>> Finnish/Estonian <olut> suggests that Germanic was not the
> >>> immediate source, but another IE language provided the
> >>> word to both Finnic and Germanic.
>
> >> Why?
>
> > Finnish <rengas>, <kuningas>, and the like do not change Gmc. */a/
> > to /o/.
>
> But that's clearly not dispositive: those instance of Gmc. *a aren't
> under the accent and aren't followed by *u. I don't know whether
> either of these differences matters, but I certainly don't know that
> they *don't* matter. The *-u- later caused u-umlaut in ON, and
> Finnish has vowel harmony, so I'd want the opinion of someone
> well-versed in the Uralic side. I know that Schalin takes <olut> to
> be a borrowing from either Gmc. or Baltic, so apparently from that
> side the idea isn't prima facie absurd.

Jouppe's compilation of IE loanwords in the Cybalist Files includes Fi. <ahku> 'cinder', referred to either Late PrimN *asku(n) (obl. case) or PGmc *azgo:n, and Fi. <ahjo> 'forge, furnace, hearth' referred to PGmc *asjo:n, so the vocalism of expected *alut does not appear to be proscribed.

On the other hand, beside <olut> Jouppe cites Fi. <ohra> 'barley', Middle Proto-Finnic *os^tra- referred to Balt. *as^tra- < PIE *h2ak^- 'sharp'; Fi. <ohdake> 'thistle', MPF *os^ta-kkes^, root referred to Balt. *a(k)s^ta-; and Fi. <onki> 'fishhook' referred to Gmc. *angan-.

If these are IE loanwords, they could equally well be from North Venetic with retained */o/, namely <ohra>, MPF *os^tra- from Ven. *hozd- cognate with Lat. <hordeum>; <ohda-ke>, MPF root *os^ta- from Ven. *ozd- 'branch' (cf. Grk. <o'zos>, HG <Ast>, etc.); and <onki> from Ven. *onk- 'crooked' (cf. Lat. <uncus>).

This in my view is the route Torsten should have taken in trying to compile evidence for North Venetic, focusing on individual words instead of dumping truckloads of Uralic and other data which made detailed responses practically impossible.

DGK