From: dgkilday57
Message: 69811
Date: 2012-06-13
>Macedonian looks like a centum language to me, with Daco-Thracian a satem group relatively close to Balto-Slavic. In my opinion Lepontic is probably Ligurian (although containing Gaulish onomastic material), and I must be careful not to assume that while arguing with Bh., since I criticize Celticists for assuming that Lepontic is simply archaic Celtic. Corsica has what appear to be some Ligurian place-names and river-names. In Sardinia we may be dealing with some Sicel material, closely related to Ligurian. As for Torsten's Northwestern Venetic, it is clear that the pre-shifted Paleo-Germans had to deal with both Veneti and Volcae. How close these Veneti were to the historical Veneti of Padania is an open question, but my working hypothesis is that they also had [h] and [f], and that is how some old-looking names in Belgium got them. The Belgae should probably be equated with Kuhn's NWB-speakers, and the Volcae with pre-Celtic inhabitants of the Breisgau. For the present, however, I have my hands full with simply justifying the existence of Ligurian, and indeed of pre-Roman linguistic stratification generally, against the onslaught of Bh.'s doctrine of original homogeneity and development in place.
> ________________________________
> From: dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 9:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [tied] Bart (was: Ligurian)
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
> >
> > 2012/6/8, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@>:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski <gpiotr@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> W dniu 2012-06-07 03:19, dgkilday57 pisze:
> > >>
> > >> > Thus the river Druantia in Liguria Transalpina (now Durance) can be
> > >> > equated with Skt. Dravanti: 'Running (River)' f. from *drew-n.tih2,
> > >> > with
> > >> > the same Lig. innov. absent from Celtic. Likewise the smaller rivers
> > >> > Drance (*Druantia) in Kt. Wallis, and Durance in De'p. Manche, with
> > >> > Drouance in De'p. Calvados, Normandie. That is, Greater Liguria
> > >> > stretched across Gaul until it was split by Gaulish invasion and
> > >> > expansion from the south (cf. Liv. 5:34).
> > >>
> > >> Would it include today's northeastern Poland and the River Drwe,ca <
> > >> *drUvoNtja, one of Torsten's favourites? (no trace of *dreu- in
> > >> Balto-Slavic, and absence of Grimm's Law excludes a Germanic
> > >> intermediary).
> > >>
> > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drw%C4%99ca
> > >
> > > It looks that way. Artemidorus did say that the Ligurians once ranged all
> > > the way to the Northern Ocean. Earlier I attributed this remark to
> > > misunderstanding on A.'s part of how far north Worms-am-Rhein is, but
> > > perhaps he was spot on.
> > >
> > > DGK
> > >
> > Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
> >
> > So Your Ligurian is, like d'Arbois', Dottin's, Philipon's and
> > Kretschmer's, an IE Old European stratum like Pokorny's
> > Veneto-Illyrian.
>
> Yes. However, I do not believe in lumping Venetic (with its [h] and [f]) together with Illyrian. I think Macro-Illyrian (Illyrian proper, Macedonian, Paeonian, Messapic, Japygian, probably Rhaetic and Belgic) belongs with Lusitanian in an "Illyro-Lusitanian" node.
> ***R OK, you answered that part. BUT I'd wonder about putting Macedonian into that mix. It's not closer to Daco-Thracian? Now how do Lepontic, Ligurian and IE Corso-Sardinian (which seems to be close to Lusitanian) fit into this?