Re: Ligurian

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@...> wrote:

>
> 2012/6/1, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@...>:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
> > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
> >>
> >> 2012/5/25, dgkilday57 <dgkilday57@>:
> >> >
> >> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Trond Engen <trond@> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> dgkilday57:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > [...]
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Thanks very much. I actually misread the map index, and the Bart
> >> >> > was
> >> >> > on the French side of the border in De'p. Doubs (and I still cannot
> >> >> > locate it on the map), apparently the same place found by Bh.
> >> >>
> >> >> It's a village about to be swallowed of the agglomeration of
> >> >> Montbéliard
> >> >> (midway between Besançon and Mulhouse, just off the Swiss wart). I
> >> >> found
> >> >> it easily in Google Earth, but here's a cyclemap that renders
> >> >> topography
> >> >> simple and well:
> >> >> <http://www.openstreetmap.no/?zoom=14&lat=47.48665&lon=6.77523&layers=0B0000>.
> >> >>
> >> >> The most prominent topographic feature seems to be Mont Bart, a hill
> >> >> with a fort, but there's also a brook running into l'Allan, and the
> >> >> confluence of l'Alan and le Doubs is nearby..
> >> >
> >> > I see. Bart is just southeast of Dung. Since there is no point in
> >> > carrying
> >> > things over a hill, I can hardly justify Lig. *barto- < *bHr.-to- here.
> >> >
> >> > DGK
> >> >
> >> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
> >>
> >> Would a Celtic *barti- = OIr. bairt then be conceivable, maybe as a
> >> female river-deity?
> >
> > Conceivable yes, but why would her name be attached to a hill? I would be
> > more inclined here to follow one of your other suggestions, a derivative of
> > *bHah2go- 'beech' (*ba:go- in both Celtic and Ligurian) with *-g- absorbed
> > in the modern form. We do have Brienz < *Brigantia in this general area
> > (either Celt. or Lig. if we derive it from *wr(e)igH- 'to wriggle, twist,
> > turn' like Gallo-Latin <brigantes> 'parasitic worms').
> >
> > DGK
> >
>
> Bhrihskwobhloukstroy:
>
> Would You accept a comparison with bairt for the river name and an
> etymology from *ba:gareto- for the hill name? There are also other
> instances of non etymological homophonies between river- and mountain
> name

First, does this brook running into the Alan also carry the name Bart, or just the hill? Since this name is unusual, a homophony of this sort would be a great coincidence (yes, I know strange things happen in this world). But if the hill continues *ba:gareto-, opaque to modern speakers, it would be no great stretch for the brook to be named after the hill.

Regarding Bart Piemontese, d'Arbois mentions (p. 2:48) the use of the 1880 edition of "Dizionario geografico postale del regno d'Italia" for Italian place-names. I found the 1896 edition online at archive.org, and having thoroughly searched all three sections, I am convinced that this edition contains no Bart in all Italy. I have not found an online version of the 1880 edition, however, and it seems at least possible that Bart did exist in prov. Novara but was either officially renamed or combined with another frazione between 1880 and 1896. If d'Arbois was not simply mistaken, I suspect that the location of Bart is in the 1880 edition of the postal dictionary, or another similar work.

DGK