Re: Greek psephas/knephas/dnophos/zophos: linked?

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> > Your skepticism is shared by many historical linguists, who are
> > reluctant to admit the existence of *substrate* languages.
>
> What is this BS about my 'skepticism' wrt. substrate languages? I
> have been referring to hypothetical substrate languages all the
> time. Do you even read what I write?
>
> > What's your problem then?
>
> No U.
> Although I keep referring to substrate languages, you claim that I am

skeptic about them. You are either confused or deliberately trying to
sabotage the debate.

>

By no means. What it happens is I don't understand your "objections" to
my view of Pre-Greek substrates.

> Goddammit! I repeat: How is Georgiev's Pelasgian relevant to
> pséphas etc? You know, Georgiev's Thracian-related Pelasgian?
>
> > As I said before, because it has a voiceless aspirated /pH/
> > corresponding to PIE series I instead of voiceless /p/ like in
> > *native* Greek.
>
> Okay, so you maintain pséphas etc are from Georgiev's

Thracian-related Pelasgian.

>

Yes, that's right. But in adition to Thracian/Pelasgian it looks like
there was another substrate language related to Etruscan, so I'd prefer
to use the name "Thracian" for the first one and "Pelasgian" for the
second.

> > Greek phelleús 'rocky terrain' < IE *pels- 'rock, crag'
> German Fels, but French falaise. Irregular, thus not necessarily IE.
>
> > The important thing is /pH/ instead of /p/.
>
> The important thing is that the irregularities between German and

French makes IE-ness dubious.

>

As if French couldn't have borrowed it from Frankish.

> > Very interesting. Do you know somebody whose name I don't want to
> > mention proposed there was an IE-satem substrate in Saami?
>
> Cap'n Haddock? I recall he did, but these data point to something

wider.

>

???

> > Greek términthos 'terebinth' < IE *deru- 'tree, oak'
> > Anatolian -inthos. "tree" + suffix? Unconvincing.
>
> > Any alternative?
>
> I'll have to take that back, since
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistacia_terebinthus
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistacia_palaestina
> 'The terebinth is mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures (or Old

Testament), where the Hebrew word "elah" (plural "elot") is used,
although the word is sometimes translated as "oak". (The Hebrew word
"alon" means oak, and the words may be related. The two kinds of trees
usually grow together.)'

> thus "oak" ~ "terebinth" doesn't seem too far-fetched
>

Precisely, my friend. IE *derw- also means 'oak'.

> > Greek túmbos 'tomb' ~ native táphos 'tomb' < IE *dhºmbh-
> > (actually a VC loanword)
>
> so not IE; more likely related to the various "darkness" words.
>
> > > Not really. This is actually a root 'hill, bank' > 'burial mound'.
>
> Which means you claim that.
>

This is a straightforward semantic shift.