Re: Greek psephas/knephas/dnophos/zophos: linked?

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > You didn't answer the question. How is Georgiev's Pelasgian
> > relevant to pséphas etc?
> >
> > > As I said before, this has to do with the stop system of
> > > Thraco-Pelasgian, which according to Georgiev was similar to the
> > > Germanic one in what series I was voiceless aspirated. So when
> > > Greek /ph/ corresponds to /p/ in other IE languages, this would
> > > indicate a Pelasgian borrowing.
> >
> > Yes, if you knew it was borrowed from an IE language. But you
> > don't. The proper way to state your proposal is to say it's a
> > proposal which might be true if Georgiev's Pelasgian existed and
> > if had ph for PIE p.
> >
> Your skepticism is shared by many historical linguists, who are
> reluctant to admit the existence of *substrate* languages.

What is this BS about my 'skepticism' wrt. substrate languages? I have been referring to hypothetical substrate languages all the time. Do you even read what I write?

Goddammit! I repeat: How is Georgiev's Pelasgian relevant to pséphas etc? You know, Georgiev's Thracian-related Pelasgian?

> As regarding
> Pelasgian, I've just consulted Windekens (1952): "Le Pélasgique.
> Essai sur une langue indo-européenne préhellenique" and I've
> found some of the proposed etymologies to be reasonable, while other
> are incorrect.

Why are you now quoting Windekens? I thought we were talking about Georgiev's Thracian-related Pelasgian? Showing IE-ness is not enough then.

>Some examples:
>
> Greek asáminthos 'bath tub' < IE *h2ek^-m-

*ak-/*ka-m-, a root behaving oddly; and why call your tub a stone?
Møller, VISW
'3ak- (< voridg. H.-g-) in
lit. akmů~ 'Stein'
[: ak^- < H.-ĝ- mit Palatal in sanskr. áš´man- ?];
mit s-Präf. in lat. saxum (Siebs KZ. 37, 294);
+ r-(o-stufig) in altlat. ocri-s 'mons confragosus',
dieses
= semit. *H.-g + r-,
arab. H.agaruN 'a stone (a rock, a great mass of hard stone)',
al-H.agaru 'the Stone of the Kaabeh'
(von *H.-g-, wovon H.agaba, H.agaza, H.agara, alle bedeutend 'he (it) prevented, hindered, debarred' ?).'

> Greek áph(e)nos 'wealth' ~ Latin opis 'abundance, wealth'

VISW
3op- 'abundare'
(< voridg. Y.-b-, identisch mit 1 und 2 op-) in
lat. opÄ"s, in-opia, cōpia (< *co-opia), Ops;
+ y- s. op-y-, 1 p-y- ;
= semit. * Y.-b- (s. l 2 op-),
mit urspr. suffixalem l-
semit. Y.-b-l-,
assyr. `-b-l- 'in strotzender Fülle sein',
ablūtum 'strotzende Fülle',
arab. Y.abula, Y.abila 'crassus fuit',
Y.ablun 'crassus' (vgl. idg. op-l-);
+ n- arab. Y.abana 'crassus fuit';
+ y-, h- s. op-y-. SI. 323.

> Greek bólinthos 'wild bull' < IE *bhel- 'to swell'

presumably identified as foreign by the supposedly Anatolian -inthos, thus not Thracian

> Greek gallía 'bowels' < IE *ghol- 'gall' ~ native khólos 'gall'

> Greek ide: 'forest of high trees; wood, forest' < IE *widhu- 'forest'

> Greek líthos 'stone' < IE *(s)lei- 'to polish'

(s)lei-, 'extended' Gmc. sleip- Sw. slipa, German schleifen "polish"
with FU cognates here:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/69378
"sand" and "wet", remember? Good for polishing.

> Greek khrónos 'time' < IE *(s)ker- 'to cut'

Unconvincing.

> Greek phelleús 'rocky terrain' < IE *pels- 'rock, crag'

German Fels, but French falaise. Irregular, thus not necessarily IE.

> Greek púndax 'bottom of a vessel' < IE *bhudh-no- ~ native puthme:n
> 'bottom, base'

irregular, and
UEW
'puntз (~ -ksз) 'Boden, Grund' Finno-Permian
Tscher. KB pə^ndaš, J pŭndaš, (Beke: FUF 22: 107) JP pŭntakš 'Boden (KB JP U B), Grund (KB JP U)' |
wotj. S pides, K pə^des, (Wichm.) G pîdes 'Boden, Grund' |
syrj. (Wied.) pid, PO pÓ©d 'Tiefe', S P pide, PO pÓ©dÓ© '(Adv.) tief hinein', S P pides, PO pÓ©dÓ©:s 'Boden (S P PO), Grund (P PO), Sohle (PO)', S P pidin, PO pÓ©dÓ©:n '(Adv.) tief
(> ostj. V DN pĕtə O påti 'Boden (V DN O), Ende (V O), Sohle (O), N patśa, pattśu 'für, anstatt, statt',
wog. So. pal 'Ende', K pät 'Spur', N patit 'Spur, Grund').

< frühurar. *bhundas und (früh)uriran. *bunda-:
aw. bÅ­:na- (< *bundna- ?) 'Grund, Boden, Tiefe',
altind. budhná- 'Boden, Grund, Grundfläche, Fuß, Wurzel',
pers. bun 'Grund, Fundament, Boden',
lat. fundus 'Grund, Gefäßboden, Meeresgrund'.

Tscher. akš, aš, wotj. es und syrj. es sind denom. Nominalsuffixe, die möglicherweise bereits in FP Zeit an den Stamm getreten sind.

Das von Budenz (NyK 6:464) und Beke (NyK 45 : 352) hier eingeordnete
mord. E M potmaks, E potnaks 'Boden, Grund'
gehört wegen der inlautenden Konsonantenverbindung nicht in diesen Zusammenhang.

Collinder (FUV) stellt auch
tscher. B pundə^š, punduš 'Baumstumpf'
hierher, das er mit der tscher. Entsprechung für identisch hält. Das ist jedoch nicht akzeptabel, da die Wörter für 'Boden, Grund' auf einen urtscher. reduzierten Vokal, die Wörter für 'Baumstumpf' auf einen urtscher. vollen Vokal der ersten Silbe hinweisen.'

The unreasoned assumption here of loan IIr > FP is traditional.
The assumption loan FP > Ugric is similarly unreasoned.

> Greek púrgos 'tower' < IE *bhºrgh- (actually a Vasco-Caucasian
> Wanderwort)

thus not IE

> Greek sûs 'pig' ~ native hûs 'pig'


> Greek términthos 'terebinth' < IE *deru- 'tree, oak'

Anatolian -inthos. "tree" + suffix? Unconvincing.

> Greek therápne: 'residence' ~ native téramnon 'house'

> Greek túmbos 'tomb' ~ native táphos 'tomb' < IE *dhºmbh-
> (actually a VC loanword)

so not IE; more likely related to the various "darkness" words.

> Anyway, a large part of the Pre-Greek substrate (which I must insist
> it can't be attributed to a single language as Beekes do) isn't of
> IE origin, but at least a part of it is related to Etruscan. For
> example Greek ksánthos 'yellow, blonde' can be linked to Etruscan
> zamathi 'gold' (/z/ = [ts]). This is why I'd prefer to keep the name
> "Pelasgian" for the Etruscan-related substrate and Thracian for the
> IE substrate described by Georgiev et al.

No, you don't.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/69332
'pséphas must be a "Pelasgian" (a variety of Thracian) loanword, '

Tavi, why are you bullshitting me?

This is merely 65 posts ago that you issued an authoritative statement on the true status on Greek substrates, and now you issue an incompatible authoritative statement on the same subject? Do you think we are too retarded to look back into the archives? It's not that you don't have good ideas, but if you behave like can cover up for earlier mistakes by pretending you didn't make them you just lose people's respect for you as a researcher.

>
> I also attribute to the Pelasgian substrate the voiceless aspirated
> result of the stop series III in Greek and Italic, as the shift
> voiced > voiceless aspirated is seen in Etruscan. Of course,
> Thracian must have also interacted with Pelasgian, so words such as
> púrgos and túmbos might have been borrowed from the latter into the
> former.

Why 'must'?

> > Don't forget that a 'link', when implying borrowing in two
> > languages A and B means either 1. A -> B, 2. B -> A or C -> A, B.
> >
> > > Who said "borrowing"? IMHO this is common inheritance. To me, IE
> > > and Altaic stem from the same phylum.
> >

>
> > You didn't say anything other than 'link'. How are we supposed to
> > know what you mean when you couch your proposals in vague terms?
> >
> I do my best to keep a coherent line on my posts, so I don't have to
> repeat everything each time.

That is exactly what you don't do, and making an authoritative statement that you do (and an irrelevant one in the context) to the effect that you do doesn't make it so.

> > > This root would be ultimately related to NEC *h\nitts^wV 'night,
> > > evening'.
> >
> > Related how?
> >
> > > Either by way of borrowing (in the case the languages involved
> > > aren't genetically related) or common inheritance (otherwise).
> >
> > So words are related either by way of borrowing or by common
> inheritance. Thank you for enlightening me.
> >
> If you refer to sound correspondences, *h\nitts\wV > *nekW-t-
> indicates "centumization".

No, I was referring to the fact that instead of answering my question you stated a vacuous tautology.


Torsten