Re: Greek psephas/knephas/dnophos/zophos: linked?

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > > According to
> > > R.S.P. BEEKES "PRE-GREEK. A LANGUAGE RECONSTRUCTED", there seems
> > > to be a relationship between many Greek words meanin "darkness":
> > > psephas
> > > knephas
> > > dnophos
> > > zophos
> >
> > also gnophos
> >
> > > Beekes tried to relate knephas/dnophos < *kdnophos, but he
> > > couldnt connect all four names.
> > >
> > > psephas, cf. Sansk ksap- < *kWseph-
> > >
> We've got cognates in Indo-Iranian *k^sep- and Hittite ispant-
> 'night'. But as Greek -ph- corresponds to stop series I instead of
> series III, pséphas must be a "Pelasgian" (a variety of Thracian)
> loanword, as in that language series I was voiceless aspirated as in
> Germanic and Armenian.

They *all* have -ph-, so no reason to let particularly kséphas be Pelasgian, if that's what you mean. And if you mean the whole set, Beekes explicitly refutes that. But since they word most likely is a loan (because of the alternations) historical IE rules are off the table.

> There's also the Altaic cognate *dz^ipHu 'evening, darkness'
> (Tungusic *dz^ip-ku 'to dusk', Japonic *dupu 'evening'), whose
> sibilant would explain Greek z- in zóphos.

Not necessary, cf. Russian kníga, knyazь, Polish księga, ksiądz. Greek z- was pronounced dz-

> Comparison with NEC *h\nitts\wV 'night, evening' (> IE *nekW-t-
> 'night') suggests the labial stop is the result of the reduction of
> the affricate+labial glide cluster. This way, Greek knéphas could be
> straightforwardly from the NEC protoform.

Circular argumentation, inconclusive.

> > *dhnebh- < *dhnembh- < *tŋ-áN- < *taŋ´-aN-? [Pokorny's
> > *tem- "darkness"] (*nembh- is then no 'Kontaminationsform')
> >
> This reminds me of Altaic *tHjú:ni
> <http://newstar.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/alt/altet&text_number=2409&root=config>
> 'night, yesterday, dark'.
>
> > which also takes care of the odd Lithuanian form with d-
> >
> IMHO This would be explained as a denasalization *n- > *d-.

That's not an explanation. It's not even a proposal since it's the usual way of explaining this unique occurrence (thus weak).

> > Semantically "darkness" and "cloud" match.
> >
> > That's right, but 'night, evening' has got preference.

What's that supposed to mean? The original set of words under discussion (psephas, knephas, dnophos, zophos, gnophos) all mean "darkness".


Torsten