Re: (ptk vs bdg)

From: Rick McCallister
Message: 69072
Date: 2012-03-27

From: Torsten <tgpedersen@...>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 5:08 AM
Subject: [tied] Re: (ptk vs bdg)


--- In, "ufnkex" <spamstorage@...> wrote:
> >Jeans: "Tcheans", z is always pronounced /s/, pleasure: pleasher.
> >>Etc. :)
> >
> >German replaces /d3/ with /č/ and /ž/ with /š/.
> Not only this. In German there are no /ž/ and /d3/. (These sounds
> are exotic to any "Tsherman". :) This is why in Eastern provinces
> there are names such as Schup(p)an, Zschup(p)an, Tschup(p)an = the
> equivalents of Župan.)

Makes sense.

> >As I said above.
> With the additional info that neither Low German speaking people
> can utter final voiced BDG: always PTK. (Hence, spelling difficul-
> ties as well; e.g. highly frequent confusion noun Tod and adj. tot;
> seid "you are" (plural) and seit "since". /These two are ubiquitous
> in German-speaking Internet forums./)

I know.

> >Because North German Hochdeutsch never reached them. Blame the
> >Scheisspreissn.
> But get this message (and then do your own empiric studies):
> North German native-speakers have the same fonetic idiosynchrasies
> (and difficulties).

I know.

> The only thing that they can render correctly,
> when speaking Hochdeutsch is /z/ Sonne, sehr, Suppe, sagen
> /zonn&, ze:&, zupp&, zag&n/. To an average Middle and High German
> there is no /z/ there until you show him/her what the Duden
> grammar says; then the effect is: "fallen aus allen Wolken". :)

Dutch have the same problem (vs. the Flemish).

> >Your insight and personal experience in this area will be useful
> >for you in imagining what happened linguistically when
> >Proto-Hochdeutsch-speaking(?) Bastarnae arrived in Proto-
> >Low-German-speaking Jastorf.
> That'd be highly interesting. Unfortunately, written records are
> of help only rarely - whenever some peculiarity is renderable in
> written form. Otherwise, without a ... tape recorder, there's no
> way! We can't know how the real pronunciation/quality of consonants
> and vowel was. And I personally insist on that upon seeing what
> gigantic phonetic differences there are between German and other
> Germanic idioms (in Flanders/Netherland, Frisian isles, Denmark,
> Sweden, Norway, Island and the entire English-speaking world;
> even betw. British English and American English the pronunciation
> gap (in my own ears) are as wide as the distance between our
> Milky Way and neighboring Andromeda :) BE being phon'ly way closer
> to Dutch and Low German than is AE).

Yes, German is the odd one out. Bastarnian influence would explain that.

> >Depending on one's purpose.
> But many and various idiosyncrasies of today might be 500-1000-2000
> years old. Only that nobody knows exactly which is which.

My point exactly.

> E.g. why and when became uvula-R so widely spread virtually in
> all German dialects, and only in the extremities (Switzerland,
> partially in Austria and Bavaria, and in the extreme North of
> the German language PLUS in the East-European diaspora: Poland,
> CzechoSlovakia, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Rumania, Rusia) the other
> /r/, the apical one, is in use. AFAIK, no other modern Germanic
> language (dialect) has the uvular /r/ variants extant in German
> (of which only *some* are similar to that of French). So much
> so that the "heaviest" influence exerted on the pronunciation
> you hear in the Middle German spoken in Saxony and in Suebia
> (Württemberg; but here with notable exceptions in groups uttering
> the apical /r/). So much so that these people require hard
> diction training if they want to hide their typical accents
> whenever they wanna speak standard Hochdeutsch (for theatre and
> radio-TV purposes).

Uvular R is a fashion which spread from French since the eighteenth century. It's present border in Scandinavia is north of Småland, although it's being forced back by the spread of standard Swedish. It occurs in some Dutch dialects. It even once spread to Russian.

> >Translation: their pronounciation is what is considered standard.
> This translation is a bit misleading. The correct translation is:
> the way they pronounce *Hochdeutsch* is by and large (i.e. with
> exceptions) accepted as such. But this is not accepted by the
> native-speakers approx. South of Cologne and Frankfurt; and in
> the Oberdeutsch provinces, from Alsatia to the lake of Balaton in
> Hungary, that pronunciation is perceived as the one by the ...
> hated "Prussians". (Esp. the "Frankisation" of -ig /ik/ > /iç/
> (e.g. fünfzig /fünftsiç/) is frowned upon in the South.)
> >Of course. That's the whole purpose of the Danish language: not to > >be understood by the Germans.
> Seemingly, there is a considerable discrepancy betw. what's written
> and how it is to be pronounced.
> >Germanic -p-,-b-; -t-,-d-; -k-,-g- -> Danish -β-;-ð-;-γ-
> How is this "beta" to be pronounced? And this "gamma"? (As do the
> Greeks? I know how it is pronounced in Greek.)

As in Modern Greek. You might have guessed from the inclusion of -ð-.
> >I can understand that the Germans think that it is humorous how
> >the Danish language fails to be a dialect of German.
> A colleague of mine, who got the Danish citizenship (per Einbürge-
> rung) in the early 80s gave me some pronunciations examples (I
> didn't understand anything :)) and told me Danish is easy to learn
> for whoever is in good command of German (and that Danish lang.
> grammar was easier). (I have no idea whether I was told the truth
> or my colleague exaggerated.)

It is. The administrative elite was recruited from various German stated for many years (until we got
the Indigenatrecht, according to which civil servants should be born within the 'Rige'. The Danish administration was divided into a Danish Chancellery for Denmark and Norway, and a German Chancellery for Holstein and abroad. The result was that Danish was shaped by loan translations from German; the German movement to replace Latin, Greek and French words was copied, eg import -> einführen -> indføre.

> >I dare not contemplate the day when they discover we never had that
> >intention.
> How bad must have been German behavior in .dk if even in such
> benign and joking bits of talk you feel like adding something
> like this.

George: This is how we make fun of the Danes
Torste: Actually we don't care.
George: That was a cruel thng to say!

> (Perhaps those bad Germans were from among "de Saupreiss'n" and less
> from among Alpine ones. :))

Actually in the story of the German officer who yelled at my grandfather for stopping German soldiers gawking at the Danish girls, they added: 'He was a Schwabe', as if that explained it (sorry, Rick!).
You should be, nearly all my German ancestors were Schwaben (or nearby in Hesse, Rhein-Hesse, etc) and included the Swoop family

And the bad relationship between Danes and Germans goes back to at least
The Indigenatrecht was a reaction to the rule of
Two expensive movies about him, one shown recently in Berlin with great success, have been made recently, with the reactionary Danes as the bad guys, to teach us how to behave in the future.