Re: (unknown)

From: Torsten
Message: 69066
Date: 2012-03-25

--- In, "ufnkex" <spamstorage@...> wrote:
> >teutsch/deutsch,
> >Oberdeutsch/Mitteldeutsch
> >
> >>Tal/Dahl,
> >Hochdeutsch/Niederdeutsch
> >
> >>Berger/Perger,
> >Mitteldeutsch/Oberdeutsch
> >
> >>Bayr/Payr
> >Mitteldeutsch/Oberdeutsch
> That's only on paper and in your own/personal opinion. Out there,
> "in the territory" it has been - for many centuries (perhaps almost
> one millennium) - as I said. The German PTK-BDG relationthip has
> always been instable. And to a great extend contributes to the
> typical German accents when speaking foreign languages. This
> lability also has produced... jokes whose targets have been Saxons
> from Sachsen (to whom, according to an old joke, "GB" means
> "Kriminalpolizei", because in their phonetics: "Griminalbolizei").
AFAIK this is because PTK in the old Hochdeutsch area were not aspirated, ie. similar to those in French, Dutch etc, whereas PTK in Low German, and in the Hochdeutsch which replaced it there and became Standard German, were aspirated as in English. This means confusion when Hoch-on-a-Low-German-substrate seeps back into the original Hochdeutsch area.

> In English, final BDGs are always pronounced (by Germans): PTK!

Devoicing before word boundary as in German.

> Jeans: "Tcheans", z is always pronounced /s/, pleasure: pleasher.
> Etc. :)

German replaces /d3/ with /č/ and /ž/ with /š/.

> And you can see this also in numerous web pages where Germans
> write in their dialects (Suebian, Alemanian, Bavarian, Frankonian,
> Plattdeutsch etc.): they cannot choose grammatically-phonetically
> logical PTK versus BDK - everything tends to be topsy-turvy.

As I said above.

> An example in Eastern Oberdeutsch (Bavarian) "Wann i nimma meng
> tat, gangat i hoam". This is 100% correct from the grammar point
> of view. But native-speakers in the area between Munich and Vienna
> will deem this one correct: "Wann i nimma meng daad, gandad i hoam".
> Although they *all* do not pronunce /da:d/ and /gang&d/, but always
> /ta:t/, /gang&t/. Or the dialectal word Spezi "pal, friend, chum":
> they tend to write it "in dialect" Schbezi, although that -b- is
> always a /p/.
> Those who are able to make distinction are the dialect groups
> of diaspora Germans in Slovakia, Hungary, former Yugoslavia,
> Romania, Ukraine who've been thoroughly influenced by those
> languages spoken there, and which don't have this "lability"
> as far as PTK-BDG are concerned.

Because North German Hochdeutsch never reached them. Blame the Scheisspreissn.

> If you don't take all this into consideration, then all your
> judgments will be flawed - as far as *any* German dialect is
> concerned (I mean those spoken in the old "reich").

Your insight and personal experience in this area will be useful for you in imagining what happened linguistically when Proto-Hochdeutsch-speaking(?) Bastarnae arrived in Proto-Low-German-speaking Jastorf.

> >Proto-Germanic b-, d-, g- -> Oberdeutsch p-, t-, k-
> >but Hochdeutsch b-, d-, g-, as a compromise
> Theoretical schemes referring to transformations 1000 years ago
> don't suffice; one should also be aware of what's going on in
> modern dialects (from Flensburg to Bozen; from Metz and Stras-
> bourg to Bra$ov (Kronstadt), Romania).

Depending on one's purpose.

> >>hence the Austrian-South-German spelling -egg-
> >>for -eck- (Schwarzenegger as variety for Schwarzenecker);
> >>hence the pronunciation [flakke] for Flagge by most Germans.
> >
> >Those two I don't know the rules for.
> The preference of Southern Germans esp. Bavarians and Austrians
> for writing -egg- is only a ... whim. Because many of them have
> meant they "hear" -egg-, but they never *pronounce* this as it
> is written: they pronounce it -eck-. Almost everywhere else such
> names are written as such: Schwarzenecker, Ho(he)necker. But
> esp. in Austria and Switzerland you'll find whole lotta Schwarzen-
> egger, Honegger & the like. (Just check it out by means of Google
> or Ixquick.)
> And don't you let yourself misled by the German pronunciations
> by Northern Germans when speaking *Hochdeutsch*: their pronuncia-
> tions are amongst the best. Take into consideration their *Low
> German dialects*, which is another story!

Translation: their pronounciation is what is considered standard.

> >>(Also damit kannste wirklich nix anfangen - zumindest auf
> >> Deutsch.)
> >
> >Those are standard rules for High German.
> >The doesn't know any tax or tachs BTW
> >
> >BTW Danish grævling
> BTW, Danish: most of you, whenever speaking German are... *worse*:
> ein lispelndes Volk! :-)

Of course. That's the whole purpose of the Danish language: not to be understood by the Germans.

> Do you know the American TV series "Malcolm in the middle"?
> There, there is a funny couple of German characters. Well, in
> the German dubbed version of the series, the German dubbers
> made of those characters... Danish characters - with the appropriate
> phonetic idiosincrasies (which mean: an enhancement of the
> "lability" I'm talking about above). If you saw some footage of
> this comedy series you might be 'beleidigt'. :-)

Germanic -p-,-b-; -t-,-d-; -k-,-g- -> Danish -β-;-ð-;-γ-

I can understand that the Germans think that it is humorous how the Danish language fails to be a dialect of German. I dare not contemplate the day when they discover we never had that intention.