Re: The reason for Caesar's obtaining the two Gauls as province

From: Torsten
Message: 68786
Date: 2012-03-06

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > [...]
> > > >
> > > > Ernout-Meillet:
> > > > 'callis, -is c.(le genre est flottant comme pour beaucoup de
> > > > noms en -is): piste de troupeau, sentier tracé par les
> > > > animaux; différent à l'origine de se:mita, cf.
> > > > Vg., Ae. 9,383, rara per occultos lucebat semita calles;
> > > > Serv. Ae. 4,405; Isid., Diff.1,539; Orig. 15,16,10.
> > > > Puis toute espèce de sentier ou de route. -
> > > > Ancien, technique. M.L.1520.
> > > > Faussement rapproché de callum, callus "ā callō pedum" par les
> > > > anciens.
> > > > Dérivé: callitānus (inscr.).
> > > > Il est vain de rapprocher
> > > > irl. caill "forêt",
> > > > lit. ke~lias "chemin", ´
> > > > serbe klánac "défilé",
> > > > trop éloignés, les uns par la forme, les autres par le sens.'
> > >
> > > I see no reason to discard the connection between <callis> and
> > > <callum>, even if "les anciens" were off the mark in their
> > > details. A path has a hard surface from the trampling of humans
> > > and cattle, and a blister also has a hard surface.
> >
> > As I said.
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/68615
>
> You said 'worn'. I am arguing for 'surface-hardened' which is a
> different matter.

Actually I was the one who mentioned 'callum' "callus" etc in the first place. You get calluses when your feet get worn.
Here is a
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohlweg
in English
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunken_lane

> > > > Pokorny:
> > > > 'kalni- "enger Durchgang, enger Pfad"?
> > > > Lat. callis "Bergpfad, Waldweg, Gebirgstrift';
> > > > bulgar. klánik "Raum zwischen Herd und Wand",
> > > > serb. klánac, Gen. klánca "Engpaß",
> > > > sloven. klánəc "Hohlweg, Gebirgsweg, Rinnsal eines Baches,
> > > > Dorfgasse",
> > > > čech. klanec "Bergsattel, Paß".
> > > > WP. I 356 f., WH. I 140 f.'
> > >
> > > Latin <callis> goes better under Pokorny's *kal-(1) 'hart',
> > > IEW 523-4. I suspect that the original root was verbal,
> > > probably *keh2l- 'to harden the surface of'. The original
> > > meaning is well preserved in Slavic, e.g. Czech <kaliti> 'to
> > > temper, case-harden'. Russian <kalitI> 'to heat, roast'
> > > suggests an intermediate Old Russ. sense 'to toast, harden the
> > > surface of (a piece of bread)'.
> >
> > Semantically similar to the 'sharp' root.
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/62531
>
> This is a 55-gallon drum of worms. It is not possible to respond to
> such an enormous agglomeration of material in one post.

Actually with 'semantically similar' I was referring to
'Der Übergang von "durch Trocknen gehärtet" zu "scharf" ist auch ohne das leicht erklärt. Tacitus gibt an, Germanicus habe vor dem Kampf bei Idistaviso, um seinen Truppen Mut zu machen, die schlechte Bewaffnung des Gegners geschildert und dabei behauptet, die meisten Cherusker hätten statt der hastae nur vorn angebrannte oder kurze Spieße (praeusta aut brevia tela â€" Ann. 2, 14). Es ist klar, was der Römer meint: die Spieße hatten keine Eisenspitzen, sondern das Holz war vorne nur durch Ansengen gehärtet. Dies Verfahren hat, da Eisen noch knapp und teuer war, sehr nahe gelegen, und es ist sicher uralt. Als Bezeichnung für diese Härtung der Speerspitzen aber mußte nach seiner dargelegten ältesten Bedeutung skarp- am nächsten liegen. Als dann Eisenspitzen an die Stelle traten, wird dies Wort beibehalten sein und nun das bezeichnet haben, worauf es bei diesen am meisten ankam: die Schärfe. Von hier verallgemeinert mag skarp- zu der Bedeutung gekommen sein, die es bei uns angenommen hat und die später auch in die nordischen Sprachen gedrungen ist â€" auch lettisch skarbs, das als "scharf" ähnlich abseits zu stehen scheint, mag von unserem Worte abhängig sein -.'


> > BTW enjoy:
> > UEW:
> > 'kalke 1 'hart' FW [Finno-Volgaic]
> > Finn. kalki (Gen. kaljen)
> > 1. 'strävt, hårt föremål; rauher, harter Gegenstand',
> > 2. 'vanlottad person, vanlottad, olycklig; stiefmütterlich
> > behandelte Person, stiefmütterlich behandelt, unglücklich',
> > (SKES dial.) kalkea, kalkkea 'suuri, järeä; pirteä, reipas; kova,
> > kuuluva (ääni); groß, grob; munter, frisch; hart, hörbar (Laut)';
> > est. (dial.) kalk (Gen. kalgi) 'ein zerlumptes, schlecht
> > gekleidetes Kind',
> > (SKES) kalk (Gen. kalgi), kalg (Gen. kalje, kale) 'kova,
> > kylmäkiskoinen; liian kova, hauras (rauta); hart, kalt, kühl, zu
> > hart, zerbrechlich, brüchig (Eisen)' |
> > mord. (Paas. : MSFOu. 22:87, 109) E kalgodo, kalgudo, M kalguda
> > 'hart'.
> >
> > Mord. do und da sind Ableitungssuffixe.
> >
> > Anderson, Stud. 289;
> > SKES.'
> >
> > Note the variant gen. kale
>
> Fronting of a dorsal before a front vowel is a common occurrence.
> All that appears to have happened here is something like *kalken >
> *kalgen > *kalje(n) > <kale> in some dialect.

It's called
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonant_gradation
cf.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_phonology#Consonant_gradation

Since Finnish originally had only one set of stops, voiced and unvoiced ones being allophones, foreign words with either type of stop would end in the same paradigm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_phonology#Voiced_plosives
If we imagine the original form to be something like *kaľ-, it could end up in paradigms like
kalg-, kalj-
kalk-, kalγ-
kalkk-, kalk-.

> That it resembles Lat. <callis> is mere coincidence.

I wish I had your self-confidence.

> > > Lat. <callum> and <callis> in this view continue zero-grade
> > > formations *k&2l-no'-, *k&2l-ni'-. From the same stem are Welsh
> > > <caill>, Breton <kell> 'testicle' (cf. English slang <rocks>).
> > > Gaulish *caljo-, *calja:wo- 'stone' vel sim. are reflected in
> > > French <chaille> 'concretion, flint' and <caillou> 'pebble'
> > > (from a non-/ka/-fronting dialect).
> >
> > UEW:
> > 'kaľkkз 'Ei; Hoden' FP
> > ??[Finn. (SKES) kalkku (Pl. kalkut) 'mulkku, kives; Hoden';
> > kar. (Gen.: Suomi 1881:88) kalkku (Pl. kalkut)] |
> > ?? syrj. S P koľk, PO kuľk 'Ei (S P PO); Hoden (P)'.
> >
> > Finn. u ist ein Substantivsuffix.
> >
> > Die Zusammenstellung ist nur dann akzeptabel, wenn das syrj.
> > auslautende k die Fortsetzung von *kk in *ľkk ist. Möglicherweise
> > gehört das syrj. Wort mit wotj. S Uf. keľan und syrj. Lu. P keľ
> > 'Hoden' zusammen.
> >
> > Lytkin (VokPerm. 46) und ESK stellen wotj. B kөľөk 'яйцo' hierher.
> > Dieser Beleg ist aus anderen Quellen nicht bekannt; möglicherweise
> > gehört er zu wotj. keľan und syrj. keľ 'Hoden'.'
> >
> > > Matasovic', following Joseph, puts Proto-Celtic *kaleto- 'hard'
> > > (Old Irish <calath>, We. <caled>) with PIE *k^elh{x}- 'to
> > > freeze' (Avestan <sar@...> 'cold', Lithuanian <s^a'lti> 'to be
> > > cold, freeze'. I think however that Pokorny was correct to
> > > place *kaleto- under *kal- 'hard'. It can represent a secondary
> > > participle built to the zero-grade stem of *keh2l-, namely
> > > *k&2l-eto-.
> > >
> > > > The geographical distribution points to an original Venetic
> > > > word. Suetonius' 'silvae callesque' seems to point to some
> > > > connection with "forest", pace Ernout-Meillet.
> > >
> > > Modern Venetian has <cale>, the expected reflex of Lat.
> > > <callem>. I see no good reason to regard <callis> as other than
> > > inherited.
> >
> > How do you explain the Finno-Volgaic forms?
>
> What needs explaining? The Uralic forms involve something like
> *kalk(k)- with two dorsals.

UEW also mentions forms with no final velar. The un-unitable mix of forms suggests loan.


> PIE *keh2l- has no second dorsal. These are two separate roots in
> different groups.

I doubt that. Sunken roads can get very old. Being part of trade creates opportunity for loan.

> > The reason I see for thinking this word is local is sociological.
> > The calles were in the beginning the roads leading from Aquileia,
> > later any mountain path, or just path in general.
>
> That sounds like an etymological novel, not comparative linguistics.

Leaving out historical facts, in casu that the Romans were blocked from the Black Sea trade market during the Mithridatic wars and that they most therefore acquired slaves in Romania
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66827
which would have had to be transported through
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquileia ,
of course gives you more latitude in making linguistic proposals.
BTW
this
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Journals/AJP/36/3/Callium_Provincia*.html
implies the city of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cales
in original Ausoni/Aurunci territory is meant in the Tacitus quote. It might just mean "sunken road", like here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calais
Dutch Kales, Latin Caletum, Welsh Caled, Irish Calad, Breton Kaled,
or perhaps here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalisz
cf.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/64637

whether the names mean "(cold, wet) sunken road" or has a more sinister connection with an old slave trade network (run by Veneti?).


Torsten