Re: Hercynian (again)

At 5:24:13 AM on Thursday, March 1, 2012, Tavi wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott"
> <bm.brian@...> wrote:

>>>> I too consider the tradition PIE model as inadequate. I'd
>>>> like to replace it with a model without language
>>>> replacements and with just one tree, but with a couple of
>>>> dozens of branch-crossings. So, a very strongly
>>>> genealogical - but in noway binaristic - model, where
>>>> there must have existed at least 500 diatopically
>>>> differents branches of PIE still in PIE phonology from
>>>> Atlantic to China along 40 millennia. [...]

>>> I'm afraid your model not only is unrealistic but also a
>>> RACIST one,

>> Don't be ridiculous.

> I'm not ridiculous but expressive.

Your charge is ridiculous.

>>> because language replacement processes have existed all
>>> throught the history of mankind,

>> True, but irrelevant to the silly charge of racism.

> Not really. As Mr David W. Anthony (BTW, one of the
> champions of the Kurgan theory) pointed out, in language
> replacement processes, the "loser" language is spoken by a
> minority stigmatized by the dominant society, whose
> language is considered as prestigious. So pretending no
> other languages than the historically attested ones were
> spoken in a given area is fairly inaccurate, to say the
> least.

I see no evidence that Bhr. is pretending any such thing. I
think that his notion of 500 diatopically different branches
of PIE still in PIE phonology from the Atlantic to China
over a span of 40 millennia is virtually impossible -- the
dispersion in space and time are simply too large -- but it
does not exclude the existence of languages other than the
hitorically attested ones.

>>> although History is always written (and often also
>>> rewritten) by the winners.

>> Actually, it *isn't* always written by the winners,
>> though certainly this is very, very often the case.

> There's a strong tendence to forget about minority
> languages in atlases and text books. Too often the winners
> make active efforts to erase the traces of "loser"
> language, for example, by translating alloglottic toponyms
> to their own language and even people names.

This can happen, yes. The degree to which it happens varies
greatly, however, and the winning language isn't always that
of the winning people.

> I think I should have used "ethnical cleansing" instead of
> "racism".

That would have been even sillier.

Brian